EPISODE 381: Managing chiropractic practice and different personality types with Manuel Astruc MD
Hey, chiropractors. We're ready for another Modern Chiropractic Marketing Show with Dr. Kevin Christie, where we discuss the latest in marketing strategies, contact marketing, direct response marketing, and business development with some of the leading experts in the industry.
Dr. Kevin Christie: [00:00:00] Hey docs, welcome to another episode of Modern Chiropractic Mastery. This is your host, Dr. Kevin Christie. And today I'm excited to bring on Dr. Manuel Estruck, who is, uh, our resident, uh, doctor of the mind. And, uh, he, he is an MD and he works a lot with patients on all things mental health, but he also works with entrepreneurs like myself and we, I worked with him directly for over a year.
And we have him coming to speak to our, uh, East mastermind group, actually, uh, the weekend of July 18th. So a little bit. think before, right, right before this episode airs, uh, to talk about how to prevent professional burnout. I think one of the things we try to really work with our clients, whether it's in our coaching or in our mastermind is how to push the envelope effectively, have great work life.
Uh, integration and how to prevent burnout and enjoy what you're doing. Yeah. You got to work hard, you know, um, and that's kind of, [00:01:00] uh, the table stakes of being a doctor. And so having an expert, uh, on our podcast here every few months or so to tackle different topics has been great. And this particular one, uh, was actually an idea of one of our coaching members and was, you know, what are some of the different personality types Traits out there.
And we're talking about things like some folks are a little more on the, have they higher anxiety than others? Uh, some might be a little more OCD than others. Some of them a little more regimented. What are, you know, what are some tactics and strategies that folks with different personality types or different nuances, um, can do to help still be great at what you do own a great practice, provide great leadership to your.
patients and to your team and also again, uh, protect your mental health and to function at a very high level. without the negative consequences that we often see, [00:02:00] uh, in, in the healthcare field for doctors, not just chiropractors, but doctors in general. And this was a great episode. Always love bringing Dr.
Astruc on to talk about these topics because it is outside of my expertise, but it is in his wheelhouse. And again, that's why we bring him on here. Uh, that's why I worked with him. And, and that's why, uh, we are bringing him to our mastermind group. So, uh, without further ado, here is my interview with Dr.
Manuel Astruc.
All right. Excited to have Dr. Manuel Astruc on the podcast today. He is our resident expert on all things, uh, mind we'll call it right. Um, and you've been on the show before and, and you've been my leadership coach, uh, in the past for a year, which really helped me kind of navigate all these things that we have to deal with as a, as an entrepreneur, as a, as a business owner, and, and frankly, as a, As a provider, healthcare provider, we have a unique set of circumstances, I think, and, and, uh, today we're going to dive [00:03:00] into different types of things that business owners might deal with, you know, maybe they're a little bit on the higher anxiety, uh, type, uh, aspect, maybe they're a little more depressive, maybe some OCD stuff, you know, it just, what do we consider with these groups and we'll, we'll dive into some of those.
Um, but before we do, uh, just, you know, for maybe our newer audience, Tell us a little bit about yourself, your credentials, and then we'll dive into it.
Dr. Manuel Astruc: Yeah. So, um, meanwhile, I'm a psychiatrist. I've got a full time private practice in general psychiatry in Saratoga Springs, New York. Um, and I've been working on scaling out my, my practice, uh, becoming an entrepreneur with it.
And part of what I love doing is, is helping entrepreneurs, um, the, person who helps you to perform at your best without getting overloaded.
Dr. Kevin Christie: No, absolutely. And I, I do want to mention it. We had it in the past, but you had a great book that came out. Has it been two years [00:04:00] now with the book happiness rules?
Yeah. I saw October will be two years. Yep. Oh, good. Yeah. It was, um, a great read is an easy read, but very informative and just gives you a lot of insights on, uh, on what, you That looks like, um, you know, I think as you read it as an entrepreneur, it's so important because we have so many good, positive aspects of, uh, being, you know, a doctor or at some point a business owner, but it's not easy.
Um, but that's part of also, um, what makes it worthwhile.
Dr. Manuel Astruc: Absolutely. You know, besides taking care of yourself, you're, you're taking care of, of patients. Um, you've got staff, you've got family. There are so many demands on, on your psyche and your time.
Dr. Kevin Christie: There is. And I think, uh, you know, We sometimes forget about that.
And I, you know, and I, and I, we had the question posed in our coaching group from one of the doctors about this particular [00:05:00] topic because it was insightful. We were talking about mindset stuff. We weren't diving into clinical things, um, but just talking about it. And, um, you know, he, he, the particular doc was just talking about how really likes checklists and maybe it's a, maybe it's the OCD part of me.
Um, just kind of set it in passing and then, uh, we kind of chatted about the different types of things that people do have their tendencies and what does it look like, um, to, to manage some of that. And so I'd love to, to dive into a handful of these sound good. Absolutely. Um, the first one I want to actually dive into.
It's, um, is empathy, right? I think one of the things I've heard from chiropractors that are empaths, I guess you would call it, or super empathetic can struggle sometimes as, as a, as a doctor, uh, taking on their clients or patients, uh, issues, uh, or even their team members issues or just the, the whole thing.
Um, what are some of the insights and [00:06:00] thoughts around, empathy and how to manage that. It's a great
Dr. Manuel Astruc: topic. Uh, As, as professionals in the healing arts, you know, the ability to relate to your patients to really put yourself in the, in the patient's shoes and to understand what they're going through, um, is, is really important to establish rapport and a therapeutic contract, um, as, as people are kind of opening up to what they're going through and what their struggles are.
And the challenge is, you know, to maintain a healthy boundary so that at the same time that we're stepping into their shoes, we're, we're not stuck in their shoes. We're not taking on more than, than what is ours to take on. Um, in, in psychiatry, We worked with so many patients so quickly, um, that it was one of the [00:07:00] things that was focused on, you know, early on in our careers with people in terrible situations, um, and in chiropractic, you know, care, you know, people with chronic pain, um, you know, through, through no fault of their own, who, who've had an accident or trauma of some sort, um, and you do have to, you know, Work to be super understanding, but at the same also in your professional hat and assessing and diagnosing and coming up with a treatment plan.
Um, not staying stuck in their shoes.
Dr. Manuel Astruc: In psychiatry, we were inundated with patients from day one, we were right in the, in the wards and with, you know, seeing patients, you know, one to one.
And what we learned very quickly was that you had to establish that rapport, you had to, um, be in the patient's shoes, but you were also at the same time in your professional mindset, stepping back and assessing, diagnosing, coming up with a treatment plan, and the ability to [00:08:00] fluidly go back and forth and maintaining that level of, you know, your professional identity and your relationship to the patient as, as a professional who's treating, um, was, was very useful in avoiding getting too deeply into empathy where you lose Um, really the, the proper emotional distance from the patient.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. And if, you know, I, cause I hear some people say it's like they, they take the cases home with them, right? They, they, they wake up at 2 a. m. because one patient isn't getting better. Or they, uh, maybe, maybe even got worse with care or whatever. Um, I wonder, is there any type of strategies that you've incorporated or learned to, You know, when you do leave that office to be able to almost do like, uh, an unloading of everything out of your brain and walk into the house and not think about that stuff.
Is there anything a person could do to potentially manage that?
Dr. Manuel Astruc: Uh, so that definitely happens. [00:09:00] And, you know, the longer that you're in practice, the less that it tends to happen. Um, But I think again, it's coming back to that professional identity of, you know, that's my professional hat. I'm worrying about this when I'm at home.
Um, and, uh, I've got to leave the practice at the door when, when I walk out of the door. So the thoughts are going to come up. We can't help where the mind goes, but, but rather than digging in and continuing to, to obsess and to focus on that, I think it's, uh, not getting rid of the thoughts, but refocusing on what's going on.
Whoops. I'm in my, you know, parent, husband, wife role right now. And that doesn't belong here.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. And I think you had a great insight is that as you do progress, I'm in 19 years now, uh, you definitely don't think about it as much as when you do when you're early on. So if you're listening to this and you're, In the first handful of years of practice, it might be a little bit more, uh, you know, [00:10:00] than you were hoping for as far as dealing with it outside of practice and thinking about it.
But as you do get along and you get a little more experience and you realize that, um, you're going to help a ton of people and you can't help everybody and you're never going to have a hundred percent success rate. Uh, you do get a little more numb to it. So I think that is good advice. And I think, uh, another thing that I've found helpful for me is that having colleagues that you can.
Talk to you about particular cases. If it's just one of those ones that's really getting to you a bit, um, talking to them a bit about that. Um, I found that to be helpful for me in the past.
Dr. Manuel Astruc: It's really interesting when, when you're working in a private practice, uh, you can get very isolated, but having people that that you can call or text or periodically touch base with, or it's just some kind of peer supervision.
Is, is very, very helpful.
Dr. Kevin Christie: And we've seen it, um, within our different groups that we have of [00:11:00] chiropractors, whether it's our coaching program or mastermind, um, be it the clinical or the entrepreneurial aspect of it, uh, having those, uh, colleagues and sounding boards and things of that nature are really, really helpful, uh, when, when managing some of that.
So I think, uh, I think that rounds out, I'm sure there's, we could probably do a whole episode on, on empathy, but we're going to, we're going to Tackle a handful here. Uh, the next one, you know, I think, I think in society, again, I'm not the expert here, but we're seeing a lot of higher levels in general of anxiety.
Um, and you know, I don't, I don't know what all the reasons were. I know there's a lot of about it, but some people are going to definitely tend to be on the little more, uh, higher end of anxiety. And if you are a doctor and or practice owner, um, it could be a little bit of a struggle there. So what are some of the.
initial thoughts there on, on anxiety. And then we can kind of workshop this for a minute.
Dr. Manuel Astruc: Yeah. So anxiety is a very normal human [00:12:00] emotion. And when we talk about, uh, anxiety from a psychiatric perspective, um, there's, there's a gradient or scale. of kind of normal anxiety and at some point where it starts to cross a line to something that may require a little bit more support or treatment, you know, with, with, uh, you know, talk therapy or medications or whatever.
But that line, uh, is, is, you know, two things that we always talk about. It's a functional impairment due to the anxiety, um, or a significant amount of, uh, emotional distress. Um, which is defined by the individual who's having the anxiety, but up to that point, um, and even past that point, you know, looking at number one, generalized anxiety.
So generalized anxiety is where our brain is chewing on things and, um, it's hard to stop it. Um, and we're making mountains out of molehills. [00:13:00] Um, and the fact that we have that insight on making a mountain out of a molehill doesn't stop the brain from from doing its thing. Um, and then there can also be, uh, things like, you know, panic attacks.
Um, you know, in panic attacks are defined as kind of a, um, you know, discreet episode of anxiety. Uh, that's generally out of the blue. Um, where you get just the kind of the adrenaline flowing through your system. Um, and there, there can be specific. Situational anxieties related to, you know, a patient who really gets under your skin, who's, who's kind of a hard person to deal with or a staff member or, um, an insurance company, um, that we just get that phone call or the message pops up and we're like, Oh, my gosh, you know, I dread this, right?
So, so there can be specific anxieties around those.
Dr. Kevin Christie: No, that makes sense. When, um, I, you know, like I would say I suffer from a, a pretty good [00:14:00] low to moderate anxiety level where it kind of like my, I can't shut my brain off and thinking about things a lot, but, um, for me, fortunately, I guess it actually drives me into action, um, to, to work.
On whatever it is, that's going to resolve that. Uh, you know, I've been known over the years to be up at two 30 in the morning with a cup of coffee, working on it and then going back to sleep for a couple of hours before coming to the office. I haven't had to do that in a little while, which has been good, but it does drive me into action.
So I, a lot of times I've kind of learned to recognize it and know it's like, okay. Um, probably need to take action on something and I, but I think for some people, the anxiety drives them to inaction is that something that you often see, um, within that anxiety, some people take action on it. Some people, it kind of paralyzes them a bit.
Dr. Manuel Astruc: Exactly. So the anxiety can lead to a paralysis and an [00:15:00] avoidance of the problem, which ends up just making things bigger that that's, um, one of the functional impairments of anxiety. You get paralyzed and you avoid doing what you need to be doing. Um, our brains have what's what's been recently recognized as, uh, a series of connections called the default node network.
Um, and when you're asked to relax in an MRI, a functional MRI machine, just don't think about anything. Um, they see these connections. Light up within five or 10 seconds, and this is your brain at rest, where it's just starts to be on autopilot, and it generally just comes up with all the things that you can possibly worry about.
So, so left to its own devices. Our brain is geared for survival, not for happiness. Um, uh, so we can take back control of that with [00:16:00] intentionality. So, so whether the intention is kind of putting your focus back on, you know, today, what you need to do today, whether it's, you know, taking action on things. Um, but, uh, When we're on autopilot like that, and oftentimes as we're going through our day, uh, with, uh, you know, time constraints, patient constraints, our brain is on autopilot as we're, Pushing all of these things through our, our practice.
Um, and we can be left with just a lot of worry in our head.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. You know, I was at the coach con a few weeks ago and they had a, a topic. It was a presenter who was on leadership. He was an ex, um, uh, special forces guy. He's probably about my age, maybe a few years older now. And then he, after he got back from, he, he was in quite a bit of combat.
And he ended up getting his degree in psychology and he's kind of done a lot with leadership now. [00:17:00] And he was one of like 25 out of the 250 that were entering in to become that special forces, only like 25 of them made it out of all that. And it was a very extensive long program, as we all know, with these special forces.
And one of the things he said was like the, Because they were all physical freaks, they were all mentally tough, they were all like, you know, the cream of the crop going into it. But they really said, like, the ones that actually made it, one of the key things was, is they were able to just focus on what they had to focus on that day.
The ones that ended up dropping out a lot of times, they were like, today was so hard. I can't imagine doing this for another day, another week, another year. Cause it was like a year, they just couldn't imagine doing this again. Whereas the ones I could just say, you know what? I just got to make it through today.
Just got to make it through today. Just focus on today, tomorrow. I'll feel, you know, like they were able to stay in the moment versus [00:18:00] projecting out in the future. And something I've read in the past where it's like those that dwell on On the futures where they get the anxiety, those that dwell in the past, maybe a little more of the depression.
I'm not sure how accurate that is, but it was interesting hearing him talk about that. And he's like those that could stay within a parameter of their mindset, not get too high, not get too low, stay within a narrower bandwidth there and focus on the present. Didn't have the anxiety about the coming days and weeks of this.
grueling, uh, you know, test of trying to become special forces.
Dr. Manuel Astruc: And Kevin, there's, there's a, you know, everyday example. So you're someone who works out regularly and you know, when you're going into a hard workout or you're in the middle of a hard workout and your brain wants to quit, right? Like this sucks today, right?
I'm, you know, my muscles are burning. This is hard. Um, the more you focus [00:19:00] on, on how terrible you're feeling, the harder it gets, right? So we all develop kind of little tricks to, you know, just kind of focus on counting out the next rep, um, counting out, you know, the, the steps. Um, you know, I, when I was doing the stair steppers, I would count, you know, like 10 steps and then the next time, but, but the, the last thing I could do was be focusing on how hard I was going and how long I could last like that.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, it's exactly right. And, um, I gotta get a little bit better at that, but, uh, because I see some of these folks that do like, you know, cross with some of the really hard stuff. I have a patient that ran like 200 miles for this thing. I was like, God, like that's mental strength for sure. Um, but on a, on one little, Another part of this anxiety topic and again, I'm not an expert in it, but I was listening to, um, an audio book about it.
They were talking about where [00:20:00] some people have a unhealthy relationship with what they think is anxiety. And it's just, it's actually just kind of like, it's just discomfort, right? Almost everybody's like quick to label things now. Like, Oh, I have anxiety. And it's really, if you really dove into it, it's just, um, it's just kind of a normal, like sometimes we just.
We don't always feel great and sometimes you just have to sit in it a little bit, quote unquote, and, and work through that a bit. It doesn't mean you have an anxiety disorder or you're abnormal or anything like that. And it almost seems like it's everything's gotten talked about so much now that some people latch on to labeling.
Anxiety when it's just really natural to that. If you're a doctor and you have to do a ton of patient notes all day, and then you have to run a business, like there's going to be uncomfortable moments and it's not necessarily a anxiety issue. [00:21:00] What are your thoughts on, on that?
Dr. Manuel Astruc: No, so that's exactly right.
Anxiety is normal. Um, you know, being uncomfortable, uh, through the course of, uh, our days for whatever the reason, you know, that's, that's normal where it becomes more pathological is when, when you're starting to have that functional impairment or that high degree of, of internal distress. Um, It's become incredibly common that people come in and they've been listening to TikTok, and they have an anxiety disorder, they have a dissociative disorder, they have, you know, you name it, you know, they found it on TikTok.
Um, and, and people are looking to identify with, with others. Um, in med school, every time we came up with, you know, we were, we were studying a new disease, we all had a new disease. Oh my gosh, I have all those symptoms, right? Um, So it's very, very normal for our brains to seek that tribe and to identify with, [00:22:00] um, you know, what we're hearing, but you're absolutely right.
It's not a disorder to have anxiety. It's not unreasonable to be uncomfortable. Um, and one of the things that actually will drive. worsening of symptoms is trying to avoid them. Um, so for, you know, someone who's got panic attacks, trying not to have panic attacks is going to have more panic attacks. If, if you've got, you know, um, uh, a little bit of obsessing, trying to not obsess will drive, it makes it bigger.
You give it more energy, you're going to obsess more. So being able to, you know, sit with uncomfortable feelings. It makes us stronger, right? It gives us more resilience. Um, and we, we don't need to pathologize, uh, All the emotional experiences that we have.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. And that's something that's helped me with kind of, you know, working with you for like I did and, [00:23:00] and, and just reading as much as I do.
And, and actually when I came across that part of it, it's like, you know what? I'm going to like dance with the uncomfortable feeling sometimes and realize like, Oh yeah, it was just like a tough day and you know, this happened and, uh, I'll, I'll feel better about it, but I can't avoid it. And you just gotta kind of sit with it a little bit sometimes.
Dr. Manuel Astruc: Yeah. I remember, you know, Seth Godin used to say dance with your fears, right? Um, like, like don't avoid just dance. Um, and whatever it is that you're the most afraid of, that's what you should be pointing yourself at. Right? Cause you're just avoiding it. And it's probably the next big breakthrough that you need to be making in your business.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. Another speaker at the coach con, she was really good. It was more about branding. So it wasn't about necessarily like leadership and psychology, but, uh, she has a teenage daughter and she was, she was talking about, um, one of the parenting things that they have. It's like a whole thing where she, you know, whenever her daughter is fearful of something, cause she's like, I want to, you know, when you're a parent, you're, you're not raising a kid, you're raising a, a, a, you know, a [00:24:00] thriving adult and he, she wants her daughter to do big things like she has.
Yeah. One of the things she says of her daughter, like when there's, you know, fear around something, she's the, the saying they have is the anecdote for fear is, is courage. And, you know, and that's, sometimes we have to realize that like, there's a lot of challenging things that we're going to deal with. And the anecdote to that a lot of times is courage.
We all have that fear or anxiety around things and it's the courage to work through that is what's going to help you grow and develop as a person and obviously as a professional.
Dr. Manuel Astruc: And Dan Sullivan's great line is, you know, courage never feels good.
Dr. Kevin Christie: That's true. Yes, that's, it's really true. Cause I think some people think that those that have, you know, a higher levels of courage think that it's like, it's easy for them.
It's like, no, you know, go work it through that courage. It's not fun.
[00:25:00] [00:26:00]
Dr. Kevin Christie: That's great.
All right. So I think we, we, we tackled anxiety. Well, there let's, um, move on to, let's move on to depressive, but not I don't want to go into full blown, like clinical depression. I think obviously if you, if you've been diagnosed with that, if you've been dealing with that, um, you know, the podcast is probably not the, the place for you to get your solutions for it.
You want to see you got a professional like yourself, doc. Um, but you know, some people I think battle, uh, depressive moods or, or such that wouldn't necessarily be. Yeah. full on clinical depression maybe. Um, and you should have to manage some of that. Uh, am I accurate in what I just said there, or can you give us some better insights on that?
Dr. Manuel Astruc: So, so you're exactly right. So the, the personality styles in our interactions with the world, we have the people who are [00:27:00] just, you know, extremely, uh, exuberant and vivacious and no, nothing ever gets them down. And there's a whole spectrum, you know, You know, if you get too high on that, then, then you're manic.
But, but, um, some people are just really happy people. Um, other people tends to be more melancholic, um, or, or there's a season in their life where they're more melancholic and it's not crossing the line into, um, causing that functional impact or high level of distress. Um, and then, you know, the, the, the steps that we have are number one, you know, kind of accepting where you're at.
Right. This is kind of how, how my personality tends to run. Um, we'll oftentimes compare ourselves, right? Like, I wish I was like, you know, Kevin, you know, I, you know, vivacious and social and outgoing and whatever. Um, [00:28:00] um, but but that that comparison really is going to have us measure our shortfalls compared to someone else, right?
We're comparing our our insides to someone's outsides. And it's best to really work on that, accepting this is, this is kind of how I tend to function. Um, and how can I flourish within this as, as best as I can?
Dr. Kevin Christie: No, it makes sense. And one of the things I've talked to a lot of chiropractors about, whether it's, let's say a little more melancholic or a lot more introverted, you know, um, is when you do hire, I like to get, um, a little more extroverted folks, you know, Maybe a little more vivacious around them.
So that now the clinic has a good energy. Um, when patients come in, they've got some folks that are on that, you know, higher energy and, uh, extroverted type of, [00:29:00] um, path a bit. And I think that's helped some chiropractors as well.
Dr. Manuel Astruc: There's a little bit of a hidden piece that, that also happens because for someone who tends to be a little more dysphoric or melancholic and, you know, they're coming into work and they're, they're trying to ramp up their energy to engage and to help patients, um, you know, what will often happen is that they're fried by the time they get home.
And then the family unfortunately suffers because they're, they're not, you know, up to engaging and relating in ways that they could. And I think that, you know, that's, that's a place to have a conversation with your partner, you know, your partner at home in terms of what you need to, you know, kind of, uh, de stress.
And in transition from, you know, kind of your work mode, the dad or mom mode, you know, you know, husband, wife mode, um, within the family [00:30:00] settings so that you're, you're, you're kind of identifying that this is a legit concern that, that can be addressed.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. And one of the things we've done in my family is that, um, I mean, almost no matter what, I'm, I'm 10 more to introvert.
Some people might say, and if that's a real thing or not, but you know, I can definitely turn it on. And when I'm in my practice, like I have a lot of good conversations and stuff, but it definitely drains me. And at night I'm, I'm a little more, uh, challenging to, to kind of keep that energy going. Uh, I'm an early riser as well.
And so. I spend from 6 a. m. to 7 30 a. m. with my kids and we're doing a bunch of stuff for like 90 minutes and I'm, and I'm really in tune with them. I've got my energy, uh, you know, everything's great. Then I get ready and go to work. And then when I come home, um, I still spend another hour and a half with them, but it's definitely a little more melancholy.
And I'm not as a vivacious and talkative at that point after a long day, uh, with, with patients and such, but, um, [00:31:00] I found that, That gives me a good 90 minutes in the morning, seven days a week, at least, um, uh, to, to really, uh, be present with my kids and such.
Dr. Manuel Astruc: And you've had conversations about this with your wife, right?
You guys have a very foundational kind of good, good communication. So, like, it's not a weakness that you come home and you're, you're a little fried. It's not weak. It's just how it is. And let's work on problem solving and talking about it and, um, you know, not, not. Trying to be something that you can't be or, or also having expectations from your spouse.
Oh gosh, you're finally home. Like take, take over.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. And I also have drawn a pretty good line where I don't work on weekends. Um, there, I mean, I travel on weekends and do some work, but when I'm in, when I'm home, I'm home on weekends, I'm not, I'm not working and stuff. So that's helped out.
[00:32:00] [00:33:00]
Dr. Kevin Christie: All right, let's go to our last one here.
I know there's probably more, but we're going to kind of just tackle these ones. And the next one is the, the OCD types. You know, I think a lot of times with the [00:34:00] OCD, they can be really good clinically. Um, you know, they, they uncover all the potential issues and, and really focus on that, uh, but it can probably, um, cause some, some issues there.
What do you see with, with the OCD stuff and being a business owner, uh, slash practitioner?
Dr. Manuel Astruc: Um, so it's really interesting, uh, So people who are actually OCD. Right. They actually have the disorder. They're, they're the most tormented people that I treat. Um, because, because they've got really good insights, um, but they can't stop doing things that are driving them crazy.
Yeah, and they're oftentimes very embarrassed by it and can't talk about it anywhere else. Um, so if we step back from, from that level of distress, um, you know, we end up with obsessional kind of personalities and personality traits. And I think that, you know, one of the challenges there, I, the level of organization that, that, [00:35:00] uh, can be super useful, uh, to keep your practice running, to keep yourself on track with things, um, can also lead to a high level of agility with the people around you.
Um, so for people who tend to be obsessional and, and, um, I'm talking about folks who find it, you know, soothing. Right. So, so my checklist and, and this is how I run the practice. And this is how, you know, you put the patients, you know, in the room and like, it's gotta be just so, I mean, it soothes them. They feel way better when, when they're doing that.
Um, but it may be driving everybody else crazy.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, I have a buddy that's like that and he was like, he's like, how do you let that be like that or whatever? And I was like, well, it doesn't bother me. He's like, that would bother me. I was like, well, I know that's why you have to have it the other way. They become like a vicious, vicious cycle of like, uh, not like you said, the rigidity and not having the flexibility around, uh, margins [00:36:00] of error, uh, that life is going to be right.
Dr. Manuel Astruc: That's right. There's always going to be curve balls. Like you can't avoid them.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, for sure. Um, what would be some strategies for, for that OCD? And again, not like to the where, where it's like off, off the charts, but even certain a level as an entrepreneur, I know there's probably some benefits to it, um, but is there anything they can do to try to manage it, moderate it a little bit, um, put some people around them, uh, what are your thoughts on that?
Dr. Manuel Astruc: Um, the understanding of the impact on others. You know, of, of the systems that they're developing, uh, and then working to figure out what levels of flexibility they can have around that, um, is important. Um, no, my, my father was a very obsessive guy. Um, it kept him incredibly organized. But he had like zero tolerance for [00:37:00] for any curveballs that came his way, and he was never really able to develop that insight.
Um, of, you know, stuff's gonna happen. This is planet Earth. You know, there's gonna be friction. There's gonna be things that break. Uh, people are gonna be late. People are gonna forget to do things. Um, and, you know, having that that level of flexibility, uh, there's a mindset that, uh, I heard years ago, um, but when somebody messes up, like something goes wrong to, uh, interpret what happened with the highest level of generosity that you can.
Um, so, so, you know, don't think incompetence or deliberate sabotage or, you know, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's. People are generally doing the best they can, and we can extend generosity to those around us. It helps keeps our levels of stress better, and it just makes everything smoother.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, and one of my concerns [00:38:00] with the chiropractor that falls under that kind of OCD and very, very, very rigid is they burn their team a lot, they burn them out, uh, it's not joyful in the work, you know, like it just becomes hard and I know there's a fine line, like you don't want, uh, you know, to have too much of a laissez faire mentality around it and let your team and patients do whatever you want, they want to do.
But to have a little bit of flexibility around it definitely allows for a better culture and environment, but with obviously core values being maintained and, and such. But, um, yeah, it's always a little bit of my concern with, with the OCD stuff.
Dr. Manuel Astruc: And the intensity with which we communicate to the staff.
Right. So, so when we're really frustrated because a system just kind of broke down, you know, that may not be the time to address it with your staff member, because that's going to come out like with a high degree of intensity. So, for me, I'll oftentimes just kind of make a mental note, you know, I didn't like [00:39:00] how that went.
You need to make a change here, but I'll address it, you know, the next day. Um, when I've had time to process and I'm not so heated up about it, um, cause I, I don't want to see my, my staff's face, like look at me like I've just scared them, uh, or belittled them or came across too critically.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. This is great.
And, you know, I think overall having some self awareness around that and wherever they may. Find themselves struggling with any of these that we talked about is, is start to, um, work through that. Obviously, if you feel like you're on the impaired side of, of it, seek a professional, but if you just, you know, you're dealing with some anxiety, that's normal, like what can be strategies for you?
I would kind of figure out where you may be having some of these issues or not even issues, but just within these, uh, types and, and start to get some, you Self awareness around it, understand it a bit [00:40:00] better. What are some strategies that help offset that for you? Or there are some hobbies outside of work, you know, certain people that I found for me, one of the things that I learned in my leadership development was just that certain types of people just are not a good fit for me.
And I have to be okay with that and, and kind of move on and not, and not surround myself with, with those folks. And that's been helpful for me.
Dr. Manuel Astruc: And there's things you can do during the course of the day, you know, um, we talk about active recovery. So in a busy practice, it's hard to find five minutes where you can just stop at two minutes, five minutes of taking some time to just do some deep breathing, um, do a couple of minutes of meditation, uh, do a couple of pushups, jumping jacks, um, go outside, look at the sun, um, you know, get some air, um, But, but, uh, oftentimes when we get a little downtime, we'll jump on our phones, we'll do a little social media, we'll send a text us, um, and, and [00:41:00] really kind of that's, that's passive recovery, right?
That, that's kind of numbing out rather than trying to do something that's going to energize and give us some of our energy back that we're spending all day long.
Dr. Kevin Christie: That's a good point. I've actually gotten in the habit now, like, Once or twice a day, I walk around like I go outside of our office building and walk around.
It's nice. A lot of greenery and I take a walk even if in June when it's hottest, you know what I still do it because it just gets me fresh air. Gets me feeling better here. The birds chirping, things like that. And it gets me in a little bit of a better state once I've kind of been a little bit stressed or or just getting a little bit tired.
Dr. Manuel Astruc: Yeah. Yeah. So we're, we only have so many units of energy and we're spending them a lot with our patients. So whatever we can do to get some energy back is useful.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Awesome. Well, this has been great. Um, if they want to find out more information on how someone like yourself could help, uh, how could they find you?
Dr. Manuel Astruc: Yeah. So Manuel Astruc. com that's M A N U E L A [00:42:00] S T R U C. com. My website has a lot of information there.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Definitely. And definitely check out the book. It's a great read, very insightful, and was very helpful for me in preventing burnout and things like that. So, uh, highly recommend it. And doc, I'm excited to have you come speak to our mastermind group in Chicago, our East mastermind on.
How to push the envelope, but not burn out. So that's going to be cool. And we're all excited about that because we have a, a lot of ambitious folks in our mastermind groups. And, uh, it can be a fine line between, um, you know, pushing it and pushing it too far.
Dr. Manuel Astruc: No, I'm looking forward. I'm so excited for that.
Uh, it's going to be great.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Perfect. See you then doc.
Dr. Manuel Astruc: All right. Thanks. Bye bye.