EPISODE 376: Current Insights and Future Excitement and Concerns for Chiropractors with Bobby Maybee, DC

Hey, chiropractors. We're ready for another Modern Chiropractic Marketing Show with Dr. Kevin Christie, where we discuss the latest in marketing strategies, contact marketing, direct response marketing, and business development with some of the leading experts in the industry.

Dr. Kevin Christie: [00:00:00] Hey docs, welcome to another episode of Modern Chiropractic Mastery. This is your host, Dr. Kevin Christie. And today I bring on a longtime friend, business partner, guest, someone I've collaborated a lot throughout the years, uh, even when we weren't. Uh, working together, uh, Dr. Bobby maybe of the forward thinking chiropractic alliance and excited to have him back on the show.

Someone I like to bring on to, uh, get a, you know, kind of a pulse of the profession, things that we're excited about, things that we're concerned about, uh, optimism about certain things and just, uh, trying to, You know, really extract some wisdom from him, someone that's really in all circles, whether it's, uh, you know, working with state associations or, uh, ACA, or obviously, uh, I think it's an 11, 000 person Facebook group now, the FTCA.

So check out that Facebook group. If you are a evidence informed chiropractor, a lot [00:01:00] of great conversations go on in that Facebook group. It's, uh, one of the. I think it was probably the first Facebook group for evidence based, evidence informed chiropractors and, uh, has grown exponentially and just a lot of great information in there.

And, uh, in this episode with, uh, Bobby is no different. He, he always brings a level of deep thinking and wisdom that you don't see very often. from everybody. And so I encourage you to, uh, buckle in and, uh, turn on your thinking cap a little bit, cause Bobby's going to bring some great information and some deep insights, uh, to the evidence informed chiropractic practice without further ado, here is my interview with Dr.

Bobby. Maybe.

All right. Excited to have Bobby Mabey on here. You were one of the first episodes I had that blew up when I started this podcast seven years ago. It kind of was one of those hockey stick, uh, listeners, listenership for that [00:02:00] episode. And you've been on a couple of other times, but it's been probably a few years.

So, uh, welcome to the show. Most probably know what you're doing and who you are, but let's not assume and tell us a little bit about it yourself. I make no

Dr. Bobby Maybee: assumptions anymore. My, how, my, my, how the stars have fallen. This is a weird, uh, I guess what business or a weird place to be in where if you're not like constantly in people's faces, they will easily forget about you.

And that's okay. It doesn't mean things aren't still going on. Um, I think a lot of the things I'm doing now are more background oriented or profession, profession facing. So I do a lot with the American Chiropractic Association now. I am the House of Delegates representative for the state of Oregon. So I was elected.

I think I won by four votes and they were nice. There were only six votes total. It sounds like a Florida political race is usually like by a hundred votes or something. It was tight for the region, tight for the region. Um, no, but I've been representing the Oregon and the HOD for two years [00:03:00] now. Um, I do a lot of work with.

The Oregon Board of Chiropractic Examiners, their peer review committee. It's a interesting thing that we have in the state of Oregon where if the board needs certain behaviors such as billing or practice type behaviors to be reviewed for those docs that get in trouble, they are, there's a committee that is assigned to sort of review chart notes, review billing practices and business behaviors, all those sorts of things and say, As a group of peers, you know, this is not appropriate for what we would expect a chiropractor in the state of Oregon, uh, to provide as care or standard of care or whatnot.

Uh, or, you know, this is, this is just fine. You know, there's nothing to see here type of stuff based on what our scope of practices, which is pretty large. So there's a lot of work there that, you know, that's not, there's no stardom there. But what I found when working with these types of organizations is there's hundreds, if not thousands of chiropractors that do this work day in and day out.

[00:04:00] Across the country across the globe, and they get no thanks and no love and there's a lot of work and it keeps the, it keeps the profession going and almost nobody appreciates it. Um, but there's tons of people doing it and I can see them and I see their names everywhere now because it's the same names over and over again.

And I try to give them a big hug and say, thanks for the work you're doing. Now, other than that, we have our, uh, the forward thinking chiropractic and we have. Uh, uh, Tiger Project Success Academy, which we can talk about, uh, I'm sure as we go through this conversation.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, definitely. And one of the things that kind of stuck out as you were chatting was I was just at a strategic coach conference and, um, one, one of the speakers was about personal branding and she kind of had this continuum of a lot of people.

And it, it's almost like, it seems a little bit like, uh, the four quadrants, but it's definitely different. And it's a spectrum and it, and it typically a lot of person goes from an operator. Um, to an integrator, to a visionary, to an advisor, to an investor. And it seems like, you know, there's no [00:05:00] doubt, um, in your career, you've been the operator and you've definitely, uh, been the visionary and the FTC is I think got 11, 000 members now in the Facebook group, which is wild.

And so that that's still a big part of it. And it seems like you've kind of moved into a lot of the advising role, which comes with, comes with wisdom. Amen. It's cool to cool to see that progression now that we are hitting our prime age of our 40s, right?

Dr. Bobby Maybee: I like going back and doing it all over again.

Like I like hitting an advisory role and not being comfortable and thinking that I know everything or that I know what's going on. And I like diving back in and finding what's wrong and trying to break things. So my personality is grading in that and that, you know, this is a, This is a profession of people who love to serve people and help people and and make sure people are happy and pain free and I like to create discomfort in a lot of places.

I like to break things down and then rebuild them up. And, you know, that attracts a certain patient base to my practice. But, [00:06:00] um, I'm I'm never comfortable just being happy and just there. I like once I'm comfortable and I think it's truly an entrepreneur's mindset. Once I feel a little bit savvy. I started to get uncomfortable.

Like, okay, what am I missing here? What's in my blind spots that I don't see? And then I dive back in as an operator and I try to break things down again and see if I can build them up even better. For instance, right now in chiropractic success Academy, as an example, we have a fantastic product. Uh, you know, like, you know, it's a monthly membership.

It's like a gym membership for getting better at chiropractic stuff. You know, the, the business and management operation sides of stuff. Um, You know, but we still assigned based on, you know, my motivation, you're probably more comfortable than I am with the product. I still assigned a group of secret shoppers to go in there and tell me everything that's wrong with it.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Tell

Dr. Bobby Maybee: me how it does not work for you. Tell me how to break it. Show me what parts of the internet, you know, the [00:07:00] website aren't working for you so we can make it better again. You know, and you've recommended that for people's practices as well, secret shoppers and. It's I think it's very necessary.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah.

And it's, I think it's a credit to a beginner's mindset, what you need to have. Um, I think some of the ones that can maintain that as we, uh, as we go along in our careers is, is great. And there's a really good book I wrote called, or sorry, another book. Geez. Freudian slip, Freudian slip, a really good book.

I read, actual person that wrote that was, was Arthur Brooks. And, um, it really talks about, you know, you and I are in our mid forties now, and it's going from one strength to the next strength. And that first set of years, they talk about having a fluid intelligence.

And he, you know, he dives into the fact that why are most. Tech startup entrepreneurs in their twenties. Why are most, if you look at rock and roll musicians, they're 70 something years old, but it's been about 50 years since they've had some fresh songs and material. And, but then as you age, you get [00:08:00] into more of a crystallized intelligence and you have to kind of.

Bridge that chasm from the first to the second, and that's gonna be more of your wisdom. And it was a really good book to kind of help me out, kind of bridge that chasm of, all right, you know, I can't, at 44, I have no desire to do some of the shit that I did at 28 or 32. I just no chance. But at the same time, I've built up.

You know, other let's call it, uh, aspects of my skill set that I can leverage to do things. And I think that's where it's exciting for, you know, say you and I at this kind of juncture of our career to advise in certain roles, but the key is not to get, you know, set in your ways and to have that beginner's mindset.

So that's, um, that's, uh, I think that's a big thing to have for sure.

Dr. Bobby Maybee: Absolutely. I think a big part of that early, those early years are trying to stomp your boot into the [00:09:00] world and say, I'm here and this is what I can do. And by the time you get to our age, you've done it more or less. And, you know, what value you can bring to the world and you start to hone in that value and and start to deliver it more efficiently, especially with a different mindset.

Instead of a mindset of conquest, it becomes more of a mindset of service as you get older to.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. And that's what I, I thought it was a good segue from what you said into, uh, kind of that book and where we're at. And we're going to talk about three thing. We're going to talk about kind of the evidence informed, evidence based side of our profession, which is, you know, a big part of your vision over the last 10 years, at least, if not longer has, you know, with your whole group and, and everything has been to try to lift this side of the spectrum of chiropractors up, and we're going I'm going to just look at, uh, what are some of the current, uh, state of it and thoughts on it.

Uh, what the future excitement is for you and myself, and then our biggest [00:10:00] concern. So let's, um, let's roll right out with it. What are your, some of your current insights or thoughts on the evidence based, which is, we're just going to call it the evidence based crowd. I know people kind of go back and forth between informed and based, but just make it easy.

Dr. Bobby Maybee: Sure. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's, let's go dark first, right? Let's, let's start with what we're not comfortable with or what's. Um, is that, is that kind of where we want to start? Is it uncomfortable or I'm I'm, I'm concerned with, with people's concern with comfort, let's put it that way. So we can't deny that the chiropractic professions, even if the percentage is starting to skew a little bit more away from the entrepreneur.

I mean, there's definitely many more opportunities now to not get into the rat race of being an entrepreneur or a solo practitioner, or even owning a business yourself. These days, you can work for the V. A. or, [00:11:00] uh, they're. More lucrative or well paying employee opportunities and research opportunities available and education, things like that.

But still overwhelmingly, this is an entrepreneur's gig. This is a eat what you kill gig still. So I was concerned. A couple of weeks ago, a week or two ago, and I've seen it also on X Twitter and other places like that. This sort of meme that's popping up, which is sort of like what it takes to live comfortably in the United States, like an annual salary to live comfortably.

And somebody had put it into the Facebook sphere. Like, Oh my gosh, look what it takes to live comfortably state to state. And we don't even make that as chiropractors, blah, blah, blah. And I hear it. Like I try to steel man, everyone's position. Now, once you get around like 11, 000 people, you can't just listen to the one loudest tweeter or water or Twitter or whatever you have to sort of, you have to sort of also [00:12:00] consider the people who are not saying anything.

And what would the opposition say in all these situations? And I hear it. I hear the desire to live comfortably. I hear that. Wouldn't that be nice? Think about your businesses. I think about my business. What, what, how awesome would it be just to be comfortable and not have to get up and try to punch back at the world every single day?

And then the other part of me got kind of mad, like. Not at the person but at the people who think that way like hey, I don't want to use hey asshole Like this is an entrepreneur gig like there's no such thing It's comfortable then presentism comes to mind and when has anyone in human history like hundreds of thousands of years of human history Why are we the only people to ever talk about living comfortably because it hasn't been a thing Throughout human history to just live, you know air quotes comfortably.

We've all All animals, [00:13:00] all mammals, all reptiles. You don't get the luxury of living comfortably. It's a freaking war out there. And what makes you think that you're so special that you get to obfuscate that responsibility or you get to hide away or not have to accept the responsibility that it's always going to be.

The survival of the fittest, just an absolute battle, especially to get to the top of the, of the rat race where you are, where you are, you might consider it comfortably. There's no comfort there either. I'll tell you, I saw the numbers and sometimes you'll see a statistic where it's, you know, like. 90, 000 a year, whatever, depending on what state you live in.

And then the one that they had referenced and one that I've seen float around is just got ridiculous numbers for what it takes to live comfortably. I don't know who made it up, but it's like three times the amount of salary you'd imagine, like, you know, if you want to live comfortably in Mississippi, you need 250, 000 a year.

So I'm like, that is ridiculously wrong. [00:14:00] And it's like, so one, the stats are wrong too, even if you got to that level and you were making 250, 000 a year in Mississippi. You're still not gonna be comfortable there. There isn't that doesn't exist. The comfort comes from your own satisfaction your own personal goals.

Uh, your own, uh, spirituality around money and family and things like that. And and to think that some sort of dollar amounts going to make you comfortable, especially in this world is is ridiculous. Yeah, that's the

Dr. Kevin Christie: plan. It's definitely an internal thing. And I think what's happened is people's, um, their gauge or, you know, what they, what they think is comfortable is off, right?

Like to be comfortable now versus say our parents to be comfortable then, like now it's crazy what people think they need. To be comfortable versus what people thought that or knew they needed to be comfortable before. And I think that's what's [00:15:00] skewed. Like if you ask someone what's comfortable, it's having a 65, 000 car.

It's being able to shop at whole foods every time. It's be able to have 14 different subscriptions to watch different entertainment. Like it's just the level of comfort is what has been probably skewed or what they assume is comfortable.

Dr. Bobby Maybee: Absolutely. Uh, you know, the stoicism that comes with the older age and getting kicked in the teeth as an entrepreneur over and over again brings about a whole lot of comfort.

I think at any time where you could have or you have lost everything or almost everything and then got it all back again, brings you a whole lot of comfort. There's anxiety there too, but there's comfort in knowing, uh, you know, like my wife always freaks out about taxes. And taxes are always one sort of, uh, financial thing.

You want to get a really good hold on as an entrepreneur, but she's always, always freaks out. Always. It's just an inner internal, maybe she learned it from her dad or something like, I don't know what it is, but she loses her mind [00:16:00] about taxes over here. I'm like, yeah, we make money. We got to pay money, you know, it's like, you know, and her job and the family is always to sort of like reduce.

The outflow and my job is just sort of like to maximize the income now that she doesn't generate her own great income herself, but she has a job. So it's steady. Right? And then mine can go anywhere. But the taxes are always the freak out is like. You can have that anxiety, or you can just be resigned to the fact that, you know, Uncle Sam and the state, they're going to get theirs.

And the more that we give them, you know, as long as we do our due diligence as business owners to minimize our tax burden as much as possible, but still pay the amount we owe, if that's going up, we must be, that must be a gauge for good performance on our side.

Dr. Kevin Christie: And I think another part of that is, uh, as far as the comfort aspect is, uh, first off, none of us were really comfortable in our younger years.

And the other reality of it is, is that with Parkinson's law, [00:17:00] you know, that person could earn a hundred thousand dollars and feel like they're crunched. And then if you gave them 125 next year, they would just, okay, now I can breathe a little bit. Let me go buy this, that, and the other thing. Now they're They're crushing it at one buck 25 and it just keeps on same thing.

Right. Uh, we have a joke here in Boca Raton cause it's pretty affluent. There's a lot of people making 500, 000 a year here and spending 505, 000 a year.

Dr. Bobby Maybee: Oh yeah.

Dr. Kevin Christie: And, and that's a reality. And so sometimes that comfort level is that, uh, ignorance of the Parkinson's law, which just states the more you make, the more you spend and it becomes a vacuum to spend more.

Right.

Dr. Bobby Maybee: Yeah, our joke in my hometown, San Luis Obispo, California is that everyone's house poor. I mean, you just drive, you just drive through that coastal region and you're like, these people have got it made. Like now all these people are losing their hair

Dr. Kevin Christie: Exactly

Dr. Bobby Maybee: all their wealth is in that house. And if

Dr. Kevin Christie: anything happened to that house Toast, um, i'll say my current thing that i've been really keeping [00:18:00] a an eye on and seeing and Trying to navigate a little bit is there's definitely seems to be a splintering within the evidence based, uh, spectrum.

They're kind of like, I guess, politics does, but you're ultimately seeing a very good evidence based chiropractors that practice differently, starting to have a little bit of, uh, infighting on things. And sure. You know, if a chiropractor just. Practices evidence based manipulation and refers out to other things that person might be, uh, consider not practicing evidence informed.

And if there's a person that's only doing, if a chiropractor is only doing rehab, they're kind of catching some, some flack as well on that. So I definitely kind of keep my eye on, on some of that for sure. Seems like that's happening.

Dr. Bobby Maybee: You know, you classify it as rehab. I think there are chiropractors are specifically just want to be personal trainers.

Personal trainers with a license, but 1 thing that I've seemed to notice, you know, used to be critical of the chiropractic [00:19:00] colleges. And the way that they controlled information on their campuses. Once again, steel man, and understanding why they would do that. Uh, but also, you know, they're sort of constraint on information and control that they would play because.

At times that constraint would lead to them teaching some really old. Outdated stuff, right? But then there is this also this other aspect where they would allow certain factions onto their campus and the thing with the students that I've learned over time after speaking to so many campuses and so many students is that they do consider anything that is spoken on their campus, regardless of its veracity, regardless of who says that if it's set on a campus, it's almost like it's gospel.

And so a lot of these campuses are because of whatever regional expertise they bring onto the campus, they're all adopting their own sort [00:20:00] of Gospels as they go and whether the gospel is good or bad. I'm not making that judgment call. Um, you know, like the, um, you know, motion palpation Institute Institute is a gospel on certain campuses.

Right? So then when the students graduate from those. Campuses that becomes part of their life, part of their practice, part of what they believe, part of what they speak out into the community. And you can say the same for rehab to performance. You can, I don't know what the straight things are, but there's like the karate adjusters, you know, the ninja adjuster, karate guys, and whatever they say on a campus becomes a gospel that the students bring out.

Um, and so some of those, Gospels, I think, have been taken way too far out of scale. So, uh, you know, we had a time period where the, the, um, uh, you know, like explain pain neuroscience, pain neuroscience and all that became such a high gospel that [00:21:00] other things that are very critical in practice, like manual therapies.

We're just sort of putting a dumpster, right? You know, their value is completely taken out by some people who had the explain pain group or that kind of gospel permeated on their campus. So, what you see is, like, over time, different factions come out of these schools based on what is allowed on their campus.

In addition to what the schools teach, which is all more or less standardized. to help these students pass the board. The extracurricular stuff seems to be magnified as a gospel. And then you get it like, you know, uh, you know, chiropractors for being as open and, and fluid and, you know, like libertarian or liberal thinking, like open minded thinking are very rigid people.

For the most part and how they practice and how they approach things so they don't change much after they get off of their campus. They don't change the way they do things very much. They might [00:22:00] add a couple of things to the toolbox, but they still deliver it the way that they sort of started to deliver it.

And so you get little factions that grow over time and then factions like our faction, whatever our faction was, we're now in our mid 40s and the 50s and all that. And then there's a younger crew coming up and they've got their younger set of like gurus and and folks telling them what's up and and that's where the disparity comes from is because nobody really meets up and says, here's how we used to do it.

Or here's how we do do it. How can we make all this stuff better together?

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah,

Dr. Bobby Maybee: and that was definitely a thought or an intention for having these forward thinking chiropractic live events was to bring when phase who are in their 80s. And then bring a young doc, you know, like, uh, Taylor Premer from MPI, who's in his twenties and let's have a conversation about how things still work the same or how things need to be different.

Um, and those conversations still need to happen.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, they do. And I, and I [00:23:00] think people need to realize that there's a lot of ways of practicing evidence based therapy. you know, chiropractic, whether we're talking about the adjustment or soft tissue or rehab or, or, you know, pain science, things like that.

And if a, if a doctor chooses to do some of that and not all of that, uh, but refers out when appropriate, then, um, that is a good level of care. And, and, um, you know, time is not the. the factor of what evidence based is. Yes, there can be a point in overturn for sure, but we're kind of seeing some of that, but that's a, that's a whole other topic.

So let's move into, um, your future excitement, um, for, for the profession.

Dr. Bobby Maybee: My future excitement for the profession. Well, you know, there's never been a greater time to be a chiropractor, Kevin. I know you've never heard that before. Nope. Nope. Um, We have a good product [00:24:00] As long as you have a good product and there is a need for the product.

There's always opportunity for the future Low back pain is still at epidemic levels Uh, you know No, it seems like no side these days whether you want to talk about the side that uh That puts bones out of place, back into place to relieve life force or whatever, and say that they don't just treat the low back they're getting rid of.

They they've never accepted just low back pain or embraced it. And then you have the folks who really, you know, they just want to be personal trainers. Please pay me to work you out. Like they're not embracing back pain as much anymore either. And like, that's a product we can deliver that is very efficient and good.

And if. If anyone wanted to grab that bull by the horns and embrace it and do the [00:25:00] things There's basically six basic simple things to manage a soft a small business and do those things efficiently We'd all be very good at it There's a lot of potential because there's a lot of things being done. Not very good that yeah, we just started doing them good We could corner a market.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. Especially because obviously the medical model is not doing a good job at all. And people are starting, I think, to get it and run, run from that for sure. Um, so that's, that's positive and we need to be there and branding appropriately and doing the things appropriately to, um, to, to corner that market in a lot of ways.

And I mean, even if you bumped it up, just shit, five or 10%, it'd be amazing what it would do for us.

Dr. Bobby Maybee: Right. Yeah. And it's, you know, it's, Appropriate messaging, appropriate marketing, you know, ethically and, uh, person focus, not practice focused and, uh, you know, understanding the sales process, which is not.

Some sort of stick, or, you know, you're not selling a [00:26:00] Hyundai when you're selling, you're just connecting people's problems to your service and showing them how they can buy it in an easy manner. Uh, understanding cash flow concepts, which you just you talk about constantly because, you know, it's a big issue with chiropractors and cash flow and leadership leadership and, uh, appropriately pricing your product.

You know, those are the 6 things, and if people just get a wrap on those and deliver the product like they know they can, we'll do fantastic.

Dr. Kevin Christie: We will. And, you know, and I, and I know I try not to come across as like making it all about money, but I do think that I've put in enough years as a clinician and, and done that part of it and been in the trenches of it to where I can say, Hey, yeah, look, you can be very sound clinically, but you also can thrive financially.

And that's something that I think people just need to understand and it needs to be spoken about more. And there's ways of doing that. And I think, [00:27:00] um, that's what, you know, I know you and I are trying to, to help a lot of chiropractors out. And one of those things is, and I'll go to my future excitement and one of the, one of the trends I'm seeing, and I wouldn't call it a recent one, but I'm just seeing more and more really good chiropractors do this effectively to help with.

Um, clinical outcomes, but also with cashflow confidence and then ultimately, um, you know, having profit margins that are healthy and having a business that is healthy and that is add on services. Uh, we've just recently, we've had laser for about 12 years, but, uh, we just recently added shockwave. I know chiropractors that are adding dry needling, uh, functional medicine.

I'm seeing chiropractors that are integrating medically in their practice ethically. And so I'm seeing this, let's just call it add on type service. Um, that's helping the patient patients are willing to pay for it out of pocket. It's helping the chiropractors that are doing [00:28:00] it right and effectively. And I just had Dr.

David Rudnick on talk about that. And he's one of the more, um, clinically minded. I know, and he, and he's doing great within patients are eating it up and he's getting the results. And, and it's just by, uh, you know, adding services that are filling a hole in your clinical that you don't have, like, maybe you just struggle with that.

You add that service to it. Patients are willing to pay for it. You now are kind of avoiding the commoditization trap. And so it could be that alternative because everybody, you know, everybody bitches about the insurance reimbursement and I get that. And so a lot of chiropractors have gone cash, but I'm also, what I'm doing is I'm seeing a lot of chiropractors go in network or be in network, but with these add on services and now you've got kind of the best of both worlds and they're building really nice practices.

So I'm excited about how that's developing.

Dr. Bobby Maybee: And the people are open their minds to it, or the chiropractors are open their minds to it. You know, the, the irony in [00:29:00] Oregon is, um, massage services are covered really well, uh, and, and even in the, uh, personal injury sphere. So, it's almost like in the state of Oregon, if you do not have massage.

Alongside your chiropractic practice, there are there are certain businesses I can point out and be like, that one's not doing good. You know, just driving down the street. That 1's that 1's doesn't have it. They're not going to make it. Uh, which is kind of like. You know, as. From an advisory role, that's kind of 1 of the elevations, right?

As you start to pick out these business concepts, and you can see it almost from the branding on down.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah.

Dr. Bobby Maybee: And it's like, if a chiropractor in Oregon doesn't have massage, you know that they're not doing well. Because it's such a lucrative, the ones that are doing well in Oregon, you almost. Can't tell that they're chiropractic practices because they have so much massage going on.

And Oregon

Dr. Kevin Christie: is one of those states where insurance actually pays pretty well for you [00:30:00] guys in that work.

Dr. Bobby Maybee: That's right. That's right. Uh, and as a state, it has personal injury protection, which covers all those, uh, you know, rehab and all those things. So, uh, you know, not getting into whether people abuse that system or not, because there certainly are, will always be people who do abuse the system, but the ones who play by the rules and they document appropriately and they Have a, uh, appropriate care plans and all that.

They do very, very well. And many of them have so many massage therapists on staff that also do cash services as well on the side. It's like when you see a rehab based evidence based chiropractor, the lone doc in the box who's doing all the soft tissue themselves and the chiropractic, you're like, You just want to go over there and shake.

I'm like, you don't have to live like this. I know you want to be the hero in this story and you want to be the main healer, but there's so much more impact you can have on the world. If you learn to delegate. These responsibilities, and that goes, like you said, for so many other shockwave and laser and [00:31:00] laser is amazing class for laser is 1 of my favorite tools in the whole world as far as like a passive therapy, you know.

And it's like, uh, you know, you're on to something, you're on to something very big, but people have to stop thinking small. And, you know, if laser is not 1 of the dogmas that they learned on their campus. It's hard for them to adopt, right? We're going to go back to the previous story. If. If introducing other store services or functional medicine, or any of these other stories, we're not introduced to them on their campus.

They're going to be skeptical as students, and they're going to be skeptical, skeptical as young docs, and they're not going to want to incorporate as easily. Uh, and it could take them decades. It could take somebody decades to embrace these sort of things. And that's decades of, uh, once again, getting kicked in the teeth.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Absolutely. And, uh, speaking, I'm sorry, we're supposed

Dr. Bobby Maybee: to be hopeful. We're supposed to be looking, these are hopeful things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Less teeth getting kicked in. Think of the impact you can have on the dental industry. If you just adopt [00:32:00] entrepreneurial concepts into your practice as soon as

Dr. Kevin Christie: possible.

No, that's a big part of it for sure. And I think, you know, one of the things people do get hung up a little bit is the, say the cost of one of these things, right? Like a laser shockwave, but, um, there are really good financing options. I'm not here. I'm not a financial expert, but it's part of being an entrepreneur and a business owner is taking some risks.

And

Dr. Bobby Maybee: it's not that Kevin, it's not the it's yeah. They look at the dollar sign like, okay, what's a shockwave machine, 20, 000. I don't know, you know, for the, for, you know, 15, 000, 12, 000, it's not that cost. It's the cost in their mind of knowing that if they spent that much money on a machine, they're going to have to do the work.

It's that cost. It's the cost of like, if I spend 15, 000 on a machine, I'm going to have to now be that person that steps out there. And has to sell the machine and promote it and plan it. And a lot of the folks don't want to do that work.

Dr. Kevin Christie: [00:33:00] No, that's a, that's a very good point. And then, uh, rolling right on, I was going to say, speaking of, uh, getting kicking the teeth, what are some of your biggest concerns, uh, moving forward for the chiropractor or, um, even if it's, um, you know, for the profession in general?

Dr. Bobby Maybee: I don't have a lot of concerns for the profession. It's a profession now. It's been around a long time. It's, it's going to adopt or adapt and it's going to be fine. Um, I have seen the inner workings of the ACA and a lot of people don't agree. With how an organization operates, uh, or that organization as the leaders of, of the profession when it comes to, uh, Capitol Hill and all those sorts of things.

But I've seen the people who do that work and they work very hard and they're very passionate. They're very well intentioned and they're doing a really, really good job. So I'm not concerned about the profession. I'm concerned about the, the doctors, the, the folks. [00:34:00] Once again, you know, entrepreneurs are entrepreneurs.

And if you ask them, they'll tell you that's what they are. I still tell people when they ask me what I do, I'll still always say chiropractor first. That's what I am. And that's what I do. But there's more and more of me inside of me that kind of. Eeks out wanting to also say entrepreneur business person.

It comes up more and more is like what I am You know, if if you ask me in my early 30s, what are you a chiropractor, you know Mid 30s mid 40s chiropractor, but I also do a little bit of business stuff now mid 40s I'm a chiropractor and business person entrepreneur and who knows what happens when i'm in my 60s, right?

It might be straight hire straight entrepreneur, um But I am married to it. I own it. A lot of people, as Professor Scott Galloway says, a lot of people will struggle in their business endeavors when they're divorced from their business. [00:35:00] And that means emotionally, you know, I don't want to talk about passion.

Like, I don't think you have to have a passion. You probably do have to have somewhat of a passion for what you do here as a chiropractor, obviously. But even if you're married to your entrepreneur endeavor, even if you're married to the process, still a certain percentage of businesses are going to fail.

And chiropractors don't fail like a restaurant. It's not like they're open one day and you're like, Man, I love the linguine over at, you know, Frederico's. And you're like, a month later, like, Let's go back to Frederico's. Like, they're fucking closed, man. They're gone. Chiropractors don't do that. They just languish.

Like really, really languish for a long time until eventually the chiropractor's like old and like, this is what I always wanted anyways, was to see five people a day, or, or they end up working for somebody else, or they end up in like this conglomerate, or they don't just like shut down the next day.

Yeah, that's usually the, the police are [00:36:00] usually involved in that. But the languish is the newer is if they're not married to it. I mean, even if you are married to it, there's still a high failure rate. So the ratio is high in the entrepreneur business world. Then we have chiropractors who are not married to it and wondering why they can't, air quote, live comfortably.

Yeah, so I'm concerned about the ratio and it's up to us to show people. It's up to you with the success you're generating with people in my modern chiropractic marketing. It's up to us with the people that were getting success with chiropractic success Academy and forward thinking chiropractic, the community that's built there, it's up to us to show people that this is, can be, and is a wonderful.

Profession to be in. You can do great things for people. You can be proud of yourself on your deathbed. Your Children could be proud of what you've done for the world and you can make some freaking money doing it. Uh, you just have to get married to it again. And we [00:37:00] need to increase this ratio of success.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Language, language was a perfect word for that. And it's something that, um, I remember hearing that word a couple of years ago and thinking like, oh, that's a, that's a good word, but I didn't, uh, I didn't put it, you know, together as far as what a lot of chiropractors, uh, deal with. And it's, it's fascinating because it rolls right into what my big concern is.

And. And that is the future burnout of chiropractors. And I think it looks a lot different than historically we've seen with chiropractors because we think of the high volume doc that just is like, you know, breaks their back of our patients and it's just too much volume and the money's there, but the volume just.

Just kills them and they burn out. I'm seeing what I'm, what's happening now. When I'm concerned about with the newer chiropractors coming out, if they don't figure out clinical efficiency, if they don't figure out marketing and positioning, if they don't figure out how to avoid that commoditization trap [00:38:00] and just really start to understand.

That you're in a results based economy, not a time based economy. And they don't get this squared away and build a practice that has margin that they can reinvest the margin into team members so that they can slowly, you know, delegate things off their plate. Like when I was 28, yeah, I used to do a lot of rehab with patients myself.

I did the ART, I did the adjustment. I swiped the credit card, but I, as soon as I started adding. You know, I was able to stay comfortable without raising my income for a few years and I was reinvesting some of that money to getting people around me and now I don't want to do that stuff. And, and, and I was kind of joking around, uh, to you before I recorded it, like, it's, it's cool to be broke at 28.

It's not cool to be broke at 42 when you got a family. And I think what we're seeing is what you just said is a lot of these chiropractors have languished for a long period of [00:39:00] time and that languish, it's not that extreme burnout where it's like, Oh, you're like, you're like, like running a thousand miles per hour and then you burn out.

It's this slow burn and it's like the frog in the water boiling type of deal. And then they're hitting this realization at our age that. And they might be in that chasm I mentioned earlier from one strength to the other. Well, they never really had a strength from the beginning. And so now it's hard to, to get to the, to the next one.

And that's my, my concern is I don't know what the future is going to look like. For these folks, these chiropractors that aren't able to get out of that commoditization trap that a lot of them are, are heading for, for various reasons. And so I'm glad you brought up that word language. I think frog in the

Dr. Bobby Maybee: waters, you know, I think frog in the water is a great perspective.

I think, you know, and it's not even burnout. I think it's dismay sometimes, you know, they had, I try to tell my kids. Whenever you're upset in the world about [00:40:00] something, it's, it's usually when your expectations didn't meet reality. Yeah, you know, whatever it is, like, you know, you're upset at a boy because you expect him to behave a certain way.

And he didn't, you know, or you're except you're upset at the government. You had these preconceived notions of what the government should be doing for you. And they're not doing it. There are people who come into this profession. With a very poor understanding of what it is. Uh, you know, and, you know, go back to the schools.

Some sell a a, a line of bullshit to people to get 'em to sign up for the schools. Um, other people, you know, oh, you can work in sports , you know, what is sports? You, there's all these misconceptions. Oh, you know, we get a lot of folks, especially at the college in the Pacific Northwest, you know, you get sort of the Pacific Northwest type of.

Hippy type of person sometimes, you know, like this is going to be a massage type gig, you know And just get my certification and other people [00:41:00] definitely deny that they ever do this But they absolutely do join this profession because it's the easiest way to get called a doctor They'll deny it to their own graves, but it's true that that's why they did this not understanding when I see my dermatologist And, uh, you know, I have to, I have a skin cancer that needs to be pretty much worked on every year.

So I get a new scar every year. She's cutting a new piece off of me every year, like a ghoul. Uh, you know, she's not just doing me and five other people that day. She's probably doing 40 to 50 patients that day. She's sweating, running from room to room. Staging her her small surgery procedures and it's like she's married to her business, you know She knows what her gig is.

Somebody sat her down said if you want to be a dermatologist This is what reality is You you fucking run room to room cutting pieces off of people and you run all day long and then you get like two or three days Off for the lab [00:42:00] work to come back and then you run for two or three more days. That's that's your life Are you ready to do this?

Yes, let's go, but nobody sits chiropractic students down and go. This is what the real life is Which by the way with chiropractic is like anything you freaking want It really is it really is you can do almost anything you want within the boundaries You could be totally creative. You could be the most you could be Dr.

Josh ax or you could be the most serious clinician or a researcher you could do anything you want You just got to understand the rules of the game and no one wants to sit down and be honest about the rules You

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. And going back to your comfort part, you know, that, that particular, uh, thing you were talking about as far as comfort was financial comfort, but typically there's an inverse relationship to, it's like, yeah, a person might like that dermatologist or a lot of carpenters might, um, be financially comfortable, but they have to get out of their comfort zone and they have to be uncomfortable working really hard and maybe doing the things that they struggle with [00:43:00] to, to then become a little more comfortable financially.

But it doesn't mean they're not like, Her life isn't pure comfort, right? Like in that example, right? It's, it's as an entrepreneur, like you're, you're pushing the envelope and you're working hard and you're, yes, you get some, uh, you get some financial rewards hopefully, but the problem is where it really gets shitty is if you're working really hard and you got no financial reward, but if you do the things, if you do it right, you will get that way.

And, and I think. The, you know, what comfort means is different. There's an issue. I want to just share an interesting podcast. Cause I know you're a parent and I am in a lot of our audiences, but even if you're not, maybe you're a Gen Z or younger chiropractor trying to figure out how to manage all these things.

But it's those things. They haven't any kids. Those things are never going to have kids. That's awesome. Dual income, no children, right? That's That's a, that's a good way to be for sure financially. Um, but it's the knowledge project podcast and [00:44:00] it's with, uh, the guest was Abigail Schreier and it's the parent therapy, one of my favorites.

Dr. Bobby Maybee: Yep. She's one of the favorites in our house.

Dr. Kevin Christie: It's amazing. Like it's such a good episode and I know some people might get offended by it, but it's talking about bad therapy and how like, just everybody's been just therapy to death as a kid. And so when they get to real world, they, and it starts to kick them in the teeth, like we said, and it's hard and chiropractic is hard and the profession is hard and insurance companies suck.

They have a tendency to not take any responsibility for it. And they want to blame all the external factors. And it's not fair. And I should, it's okay. I feel this way, like it's all these things. And she does such a good job in that episode, um, of, of talking about where all that's gone wrong. And, uh, I, I found it interesting and it kind of ties into what we're talking about here.

Dr. Bobby Maybee: Yeah. You know, and I don't want to, you know, we don't want to resort to that old, two old white guys conversation of like, you know, we are not [00:45:00] boomers. We're younger than that.

Dr. Kevin Christie: We're Gen X. We're the best. Right.

Dr. Bobby Maybee: And we don't, we don't want to resort to that talk of like, if you guys just work harder, you can have everything you want.

Like these, these younger kids that are coming up, they got, they got dealt a rough hand. It's a rough hand. I wouldn't want there's, I would, I would didn't want my situation. But I wouldn't, I definitely wouldn't want their situation either. So I can definitely once again, steel man, that concept that they've got a, they've got a rough hand to deal, but that does not negate the idea that whether you are a competitive person or not, this is all competition.

It's friendly competition. Um, but it's competition. It's fight to survive. Do you want this or not? How bad when you look at your children in the eyes or, you know, your, uh, Uh, the wall where an extra bedroom would be if you had Children, but you're a dean. Can you just have your spouse with you? And you're not going to have kids ever like, okay, so what?

So dinks get what, uh, an [00:46:00] extra car in the garage. I'm not like their vacation tickets, whatever you're looking at that you're passionate about, like, how hard are you willing to look at your Children in the eyes and be like this? I got to fight. I got it. I had no more excuses. There are no excuses to make here.

Which is a lot easier when you do have kids. They take a lot of the excuses off the table. But, you know, whether you're looking at your spouse, your family, your family legacy, your bank account, whatever you're looking at, how hard am I willing to get married to this and fight? And no one's asking you to get married to A sleazeball way of being, we are all offering now these tremendously ethical, elegant ways to be a great chiropractor and do great business.

Just how, how willing are you to get married to that and get after that shit?

Dr. Kevin Christie: Absolutely. Cause you can do it the right way. And there are people to, to help you out, but, uh, this was cool, man. I'm glad we, I'm glad we did this. Uh, what's new in the FTCA world next, [00:47:00] uh, you know, this, I want this

Dr. Bobby Maybee: podcast to be evergreen.

And not time I have a new mission with the and that is I call the micro cohorts. So, a lot of times people just need to kind of brush up on 1 specific subject matter. So, with our members. And pretty much you have to be a member to do this. So, you know, membership is what 7 a month. It's a joke. Like membership is just a token to Sam down with what you're doing.

It's not like I'm not buying a new boat. I have a kayak. I'm not buying a new boat for anything. The micro cohorts for the members will be like, just little. 1 hour, a little mini lessons on things. I think it's important for them to brush up on based on surveys that we've done within the group of what the group has said they think it's important to learn retrofitted that to actually offering these small courses to people on these concepts with 1 big course that incorporates them [00:48:00] all.

And that's going to be ongoing. It's not a time thing and I'm saying it out loud. So that means I'll actually do it because it's been an idea for years and I, I don't do it unless I say it out loud. Love

Dr. Kevin Christie: it. Love it. Podcast

Dr. Bobby Maybee: coming up. We got a podcast too. Uh, we have a sub stack. So, um, sub stacks like our blog sort of thing.

And, um, it's for people who aren't into social media because social media can be quite toxic, but they still want to stay connected to the ideas and the organization organization and all that for thinking Cairo dot sub stack. com. Uh, that'll give you all the sort of like insight to what's been going on within the group without having to deal with the toxicity of social media.

Which I have surely contributed to in my day.

And other than that, um, I'm just like, if somebody has a question, reach out, somebody has a question, reach out if you want to learn, invest. And when you want to invest, that's when it's time to call up the CSA.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. And it's, it's a pleasure, you know, [00:49:00] man, believe it or not. Uh, we are, July will be six years since we partnered up with CSA six years.

Um, and we're going strong and it's growing and we're breaking things to make sure it works. And you've been pumping out some good, uh, lessons on, uh, doubling your, your revenue and really trying to get chiropractors a guided, um, Course and support to help grow their practice and start to get really, really literate and all things, you know, growing a practice.

And this is a great start for them to do. It's

Dr. Bobby Maybee: funny because, like I said before, it's a gym membership. You know, you pay your membership, you go in, we have all the equipment, we have all the tools there for you. You still have to lift the weights. You still have to break the sweat. There are some of us like you and I that are hanging out and some of the other long term og gym members.

So when someone has a question, they can ask a question like, Oh yeah, this is how you do this or that. But it's still a gym membership. And there are some people who will come in there and [00:50:00] be like, well, I want, I didn't want a gym membership. I wanted one on one training. And you know, this is always branding and marketing one on one.

It's like, we told you it's a gym membership. If you want one on one training, It's not going to cost, you know, that's like, and it like that, you know, like one on one training costs more than a gym membership. Right? Like you, now you gotta, we have to refer you out to go to a one on one trainer who will train you on that stuff.

And they're like, well, if you just would have done that, that would have been better. Like, well, that's available to you. What we are offering something that was not available. That I know of before for evidence based chiropractors, which was, you guys are all smart, uh, as long as you're confident that you can implement on your own, that you're a big kid and you pull up your pants and you put them on one leg at a time like everybody else, and you can do this and a little guidance along the way while you need it, we're here for you.

If you need somebody to one on one go through some very deep intricacies and get to personally know you emotionally and all that, I know a [00:51:00] guy, I know a guy and he's got a thing and, uh, and that's available to you too.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, we definitely like to collaborate on that. And, and, and CSA is part of that as well.

Um, and I, I love the, the gym analogy for sure. It makes, uh, it makes a lot of sense. And, uh, I think, you know, a lot of chiropractors now are used to have learning online. I mean, many of their college programs were online, right? So it's not a, it's not a foreign thing for, for these folks.

Dr. Bobby Maybee: And the FTCA is like a 5k.

You sign up, you get a little banner and everybody runs somewhere wearing costumes. Some are walking, some are running. Everyone gets a ribbon at the end.

Dr. Kevin Christie: It's like, I just saw a jelly roll ran a 5k. Oh yeah. And, and he's, he's going to aim for a marathon.

Dr. Bobby Maybee: He's like, okay, okay. I like it. Good for him, man. Cause that's what happens when you start to taste success.

You kind of want to hang out a little bit longer. Exactly. Well, this was

Dr. Kevin Christie: a pleasure. Um, we'll have to do it again, uh, sooner and then hopefully we can run it, [00:52:00] run into each other in person again soon.

Dr. Bobby Maybee: Oh, that'd be great. They doing that these days? Occasionally. I heard a rumor. I haven't seen a real chiropractor other than an ACA doc in a long time.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Well, uh, we'll keep you posted.

Dr. Bobby Maybee: Yes, sir. Thank you for your time. Um, and I, I worship the ground you walk on.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Uh, same to you, man. It's

Dr. Bobby Maybee: been a pleasure. All right. Bye.