EPISODE 374: Is Cynicism Stunting Your Practice Growth with Chris Chippendale DC

Hey, chiropractors. We're ready for another Modern Chiropractic Marketing Show with Dr. Kevin Christie, where we discuss the latest in marketing strategies, contact marketing, direct response marketing, and business development with some of the leading experts in the industry.

Dr. Kevin Christie: [00:00:00] All right, Chris, excited to have you back on the show. There's a handful of guests I like to have on and off. And when I kind of stumble upon a particular topic, or in this case, uh, you stumbled on a particular topic and I reached out to you to have you on to, to talk about it, but before we talk about optimism and cynicism, uh, give us a little update on yourself.

Chris Chippendale: Yeah, it's good to be back, Kevin. So yeah, my name's Chris Chippendale. chiro in the UK. Um, we've got two full time practices. We've got seven DCs working with us and massage therapists as well. Um, but I also do a lot of coaching for chiropractors and clinicians around patient centered care, communication skills, basically how to deliver the best new patient experience that we can.

Um, so I set up my company patient centered training back in 2017. Um, and since then I've been doing that online, some live stuff as well. Um, last year I launched my certified patient centered practitioner program, which is, you know, it's been a passion project in mind for a while. This is kind of [00:01:00] though the, I think of it as the sum total of everything I've been doing like the past seven, eight years.

So it goes through all the skills you need to become, you know, an effective patient centered practitioner, not just somebody who's. Nice to patients and doesn't offer cookie cutter care like that's good, but there's a lot more to it than that Um, so we talk about that We talk about how you can tailor your communication style to each patient as well how to deliver a great report of findings Um, so that's kind of really what i'm up to at the minute.

We wrapped our First cohort of that last year. So we're looking to open up and we'll be starting that again in the next week or two, probably after this is ed. Um, and that's something that we're looking to build and build. Cause that's been, that's been getting a lot of interest. A lot of practitioners really want to learn more about that.

And for me, it's, it's been the most fun group of people to work with. Because they're all engaged. They all want to do better. They're hungry to learn. And we all have the same ethics of putting patience before profits. Um, that's often, and we talked about this before that in the last conversation, that's where we get tripped up a bit sometimes is thinking.

Profits are bad, but [00:02:00] equally it's people that we know we share the same kind of core values and with the same idea of where we'd like to see the chiropractic profession go in the future. So that's kind of what I'm all in on and all focusing on the moment.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. You know, and you know, I think there are a select few chiropractors, you mentioned profit, but, um, there are a select few chiropractors out there that are truly willing.

It seems like, to be a starving artist. Uh, and, and, uh, they, It's almost like there's a, a cynicism around we'll talk, dive into it more, but there's like a cynicism or cynicism around making money or, uh, those chiropractors out there that are making money and doing well, uh, are obviously doing something wrong, right?

That's the kind of cynicism that they have that will, that will dive into for sure. But, uh, that doesn't have to be the case. And I think to your point about, you know. Working with chiropractors on providing the best patient experience, uh, to, to be able to do that as a doctor, as a provider, um, you have to be on your game and, and [00:03:00] if you are a, a starving artist, uh, you know, it's, it's cool when you're 28 years old or 30 years old to be broke.

It isn't cool when you're 38 and 48 to be broke and spinning your wheels and you got family and, you know, being that starving artist isn't cool. And I, I just see too many chiropractors going down that trend. And then, and it eats away at that, at that patient experience when that person becomes, uh, cynical or thinks that profits are bad.

What are some of your thoughts on that?

Chris Chippendale: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's, it's, it's like, I think a lot of what I do with colleagues is kind of going, look, you don't need to overcorrect. Like, you've kind of gone too far, like, you know, we look at what the unethical, you know, side of the profession's doing, and especially Evidence Based, we run completely the opposite way.

It's like, yeah, okay, like, massive hard sell treatment plans are bad, but that doesn't mean you should say, see how it goes every visit. Yeah, there's, there's a happy medium there. Um, and I think that's true with finances generally with chiropractors that yes, if you're in this [00:04:00] purely for the money and that's your main focus is to make as much money as possible.

You don't care about patients. Like I'm never going to be on board with that. We can all see the massive, massive problems with that. But then to go the other way and go, well, I'm not going to think about money at all. That's an overcorrection too. There's something I heard years ago, always stayed with me.

They said, I think they were talking about airline pilots and how much airline pilots were paid and they were. And somebody's like, I don't, I don't want my pilot at 32, 000 feet to be worrying how he's paying his mortgage. I want him to be so focused on flying the plane. He's not thinking about that. And I think that's true for a lot of us more in the evidence based side that, you know, it can be a badge of honor.

It can be like, oh, I don't care about money. I'm not looking to make that much money. But, We all have to make a living. We'll have to keep a roof over our heads. And if there's even a slight part of you that is frustrated or worried or concerned or maybe even a little bit resentful that you're not making what you'd like to, that is going to impact your ability to be present with the patient.

That is going to impact the kind of care that you provide. You can tell [00:05:00] yourself that it won't, but I promise you at world, you can't, you can't just separate that part of yourself out and pretend it's not there in the room with patients. So, um, Yeah, I think that's where a lot of the frustration on the evidence based side comes in, is we don't want to be money focused, we don't want to be, you know, putting profits over people, but if we don't take care of the financial side, and we don't make sure we set things up so that we can have the kind of income that we'd like, not just make ends meet, but you know, enjoy, we're professionals, enjoy a professional wage, feel like we're well paid.

You know, reimbursed for our time, if we can't do that, it is going to have an impact on patient care. So I think it's, it's patient centered to make sure you take care of the finances. You can't really separate those out entirely.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, no, it's true. And you know, um, you, you actually had shared a research paper on the optimism and cynicism in the clinician.

What were some of the key takeaways from that?

Chris Chippendale: Yeah, so this is really interesting. I, I came across this on a [00:06:00] podcast actually first. Um, the, the biggest takeaway is this, this idea like cynicism is kind of cool in culture and it's sort of associated with like intelligent people. Like, you know, the real geniuses are all cynical, whether it was like, you know, Dr.

House or like Sheldon from the Big Bang Theory. It's like real geniuses. They see through all the lies and all the BS that the rest of us believe. And they see reality for the cold, hard truth that it is and that life's unfair and everybody's like. Completely selfish. Um, and this paper found that the complete opposite was true.

That actually cynicism is associated with slightly lower IQ. Um, now that doesn't mean that, you know, people who are high IQ are automatically trusting all the time, but you could basically predict if you looked at somebody's, um, Because of somebody's like intelligence and their capability as a teenager, you could predict how cynical their worldview is likely to become.

So they showed that it was actually causative that having a slightly lower IQ, being less competent generally, made you more likely to be cynical. Because it's a defense [00:07:00] mechanism, you know, if, if you're not very competent, if you're not very good, at the things you need to do to be successful in life.

You're not going to be that successful. It's going to be easier for people to take advantage of you. You're more likely to fail. So it's a nice little comfort blanket to be able to go, well, it's because the game's rigged and you can't make money as a, as a effective chiropractor without compromising your morals.

And, you know, it's a really nice way to externalize the responsibility for all your problems. Like, it's, it's, you know, it's not that I failed, it's that the game's rigged. And anybody who's doing better than me, well, it must be because they're doing something wrong. Um, it's a nice story to tell yourself.

The problem is it completely disempowers you. And it means you don't end up going and looking for the things that could improve your situation. Um, So that was one of the big ones that I was really looking at, you know, it predicted your, how cynical you would like to be in the future.

Dr. Kevin Christie: I I'd like to, I'd like to dive into that part of it.

Cause I think that's the real crux of the issue. And I know things are going to be different. Uh, we have a, uh, a very, um, [00:08:00] Worldwide audience, which is cool. A lot of people in the UK, Australia, Canada, obviously the majority of our listenership is, is in United States. And we have the insurance model and that insurance model is different from state to state.

Like where I'm at in Florida, it pays like crap. Uh, if you're in, uh, Oregon, North Carolina, Illinois, there's a handful of others that it pays rather well. Um, but across the board, there's chiropractors doing very well. Um, And no matter what country or state you want to talk about, there's people doing well and doing it well, like you said, morally or ethically evidence based care patient centered.

They are doing it. I talk to these people. I see them. I know you do as well. And I think one of the concerns is that. Too many chiropractors, like you said, externalize it, blame all the things, right? The chiropractic school is at fault. The student loan debt they have is at fault. The insurance reimbursement is at fault.

The town they live in [00:09:00] is not affluent. Like it, I mean, you could just run the laundry list of things that is, you know, obviously everybody else's fault. And that. That's that cynicism and that's just not a way to, to actually overcome anything.

Chris Chippendale: Yeah, absolutely. It is, it becomes self fulfilling because if you believe that long enough, well, then you never get better.

And that's, you know, it's sort of like the yellow flagged patient who's told that your spine is crumbling on the MRI. And then they get really afraid. They stop doing meaningful activities. They stop doing exercise. They tense all the time. The pain gets worse. They go, Oh no, the pain's worse. I must be crumbling even more.

It's kind of the same thing. It becomes this self fulfilling thing. And the deeper you get into that spiral, the harder it is to get out. And the reverse is true. You know, one of the reasons why people who are more competent tend to be more optimistic is because If you feel like you have some control, some agency, you have the ability to change your situation [00:10:00] You're gonna be able to take risks.

Like that doesn't mean you're going to get careless and naive But you're going to be able to go. All right. I'm going to take a chance here. This might not pay off But I can give it a go because I have the self belief to know that if it doesn't work out, I'll be okay. Um, there's a really good exercise. I, I, I did a course a few months ago on, um, imposter syndrome, professional resilience.

And one of the key exercises for this I got was from Tim Ferriss, where he calls it fear setting. Where you basically don't think about goal setting, all the cool stuff you want to achieve. Think about the stuff that's scaring you and stopping you from taking action. And it's a really useful exercise.

Like if you actually look at this for your biggest fears and go, okay, let's say that happens. What are you going to do next? How would you overcome it? Often you can look at it logically and go, Oh, well, even if that happened, it wouldn't, I wouldn't die. I probably wouldn't lose a limb. Like, yeah, I might end up, you know, broken, having to start again.

But if I had to start again, I could probably get back to where I was. If I did this in this many years. And it's just putting things in context. I think that's, that's something that optimistic people [00:11:00] naturally tend to be better at. And it's, it's a skill set that really allows you to identify where are the risks that could be really rewarding.

And if it doesn't work out, I'm not going to completely sort of collapse and crumble and freak out because I know, oh, that didn't pay off. Okay. How am I going to pick it up and move on?

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, I love the fear setting. I've, uh, read up on that quite a few times. I actually use that as the foundation of me exiting patient care.

And it's to your point. Um, it actually worked out like when I exited care for a year, um, it was going great. We transitioned and all of it went well until the main doctor left and moved his family, which, you know, it, it, it just up ended things for there. But a year later now, because it was about a year ago, um, That was the worst thing that could happen in my fear setting things.

And it was fine. Like our practice, right. Our practice right now is a lot healthier than it was a year ago. And so, you know, the worst case scenario was I had to jump back into care, take my time to find the [00:12:00] right person. We did. And, and we're fine. All right. And that was a big, you know, at 40, I was 42 years old at the time to exit patient care.

That was a big risk. Obviously I had some plans and buffers in there, but that fear setting, uh, really, And I was optimistic about it. Uh, I, I, I, I do tend to be optimistic and I just, but I like to your point, I have a little bit of confidence in saying, okay, you know, what's the worst going to happen if that happens?

I hop back into care. I was always prepared for that. Like, so when, when I was given the two months notice, uh, as far as my associate leaving, I was ready. I was like, okay, yep. This was, this was on the, on the board. This could happen. It wasn't like it was a shocking and I just got to get back into it. And I've got a plan, uh, to, to move forward with that.

So I'm glad you brought up the fear setting. The other thing I want to bring up just while we're on it. So I don't forget there's a really good book because I think our listeners that may be, um, maybe they are self aware and they do say, you know, and I am on the cynical side of things. Side of the scale.

Uh, [00:13:00] there's a great book by Martin Seligman called learned optimism. So you can get more optimistic. Uh, you know, you may not go from being super pessimistic to being super optimistic, but you can improve on that scale. So just a resource for people on, on optimism and then. I want to touch on something to get your thoughts on it.

Uh, this reminds me of like, when we talk about cynicism and optimism, the cynicism to me kind of lines up with another great book, which is the growth mindset.

Chris Chippendale: I was thinking about, as you mentioned, land optimism, actually. So

Dr. Kevin Christie: I want you to talk about like, I feel like the growth mindset is probably going to be the optimistic person more so.

And then the fixed mindset is probably going to be the cynical person there. Can you, can you touch on that a little bit?

Chris Chippendale: Yeah, completely. It's, it's funny, actually, you read different books and you come across different concepts and you find often they're kind of describing. Very similar things. And I think growth and fixed mindsets map onto this really well.

There's, [00:14:00] there's differences to each, but I would say optimism. That's certainly a core feature of the growth mindset. So your growth mindset, meaning, you know, you always see your ability to improve as within your own control. Like, people can change, people can get better, and that means you believe you can get better.

That fixed mindset, you kind of say, well, people are who they are, they're not going to change. That is going to overlap with the cynicism, because if stuff's not going well for you, and you think that you can't change, and other people can't change, and, well, it's all right for them, they were, they were born cleverer, or they were born more charismatic, or they were born into money, or, you know, whatever it might be.

Again, it's a very disempowering place to be. And that, that fixed mindset again, ties into that course I did. Um, that's another thing where it's just not a fun place, but you can't really escape it that easy. But you can, and Carol talks about this in her book, you can improve your mindset. You know, ironically, if you have a fixed mindset, you'll read it and go, Oh no, I have a fixed mindset.

I must be stuck like this forever. She's like, no, no, no. The reason [00:15:00] you want the growth mindset is because it's actually true. And if you have a growth mindset, you believe somebody who has a fixed mindset, somebody who is more cynical, they can improve, they can change it. Um, I think of it a little bit like, there's definitely personality traits associated with it, and with personality, you can't necessarily change your core personality, but you can become more flexible with it.

I liken this to singing. Like, my wife is an amazing singer. She's, she had some vocal lessons a few years ago, but she's been able to sing brilliantly ever since, like, she was born. Really, really amazing. Um, she can get a bit better with, with vocal coaching, but she is really, really good. Me, complete disaster.

I will clear out a karaoke bar in 30 seconds. Like nobody needs to hear that. My, my natural talent is like through the floor. I could get better with coaching. I could, I'm never going to be as good as her, but I could probably get to the point where I could do some passable stuff. You know, I, I could, wouldn't be on TV, but maybe I do all right at karaoke.

If I put in the effort, I can do that. Some people will naturally be [00:16:00] more growth and more fixed mindset than others. And it's unrealistic to think that we can all get to exactly the same level, but everybody can get better with that practice. And something she talks about in that book is that you don't have to develop a growth mindset everywhere.

Like, cause your context will change it. Some people will have more of a growth mindset in their practice versus at home versus with their friends versus doing a hobby. So even if you just get it in one or two places, that's enough. Yeah. for it to start to spill over into the rest of your life. So it's not about trying to be perfect with it, but just, just growing that ability to think maybe I can change.

Maybe there's, maybe there are some things that I could improve in this situation. Even a little bit, it starts to just relax things.

Dr. Kevin Christie: It does. And then it becomes a snowball effect. And I think the other thing that might happen to some folks is they, they look at. You know, there's different levels of success.

And I want to back into that topic in a second here. But, um, I talked to a lot of chiropractors, different countries, different genders, different races, different [00:17:00] towns, um, different personalities, different looks, right? Yeah. Like there's studies out there, like good looking people tend to do better than not good looking people.

I get that. Like there's stuff out there, but I've, I know chiropractors are not that attractive and they're doing phenomenal. I know. Uh, I know short ones. I know tall ones. Like You, you give me the chiropractor type or location or state or country. I can give you someone that's doing it right and achieving success to what it looks like for them, which is my next kind of back into topic is that your, your level of success does not have to look like 10 clinics.

And 2 million a year in personal take home income and for houses, right? Like you define what your level of success is, but we all know, uh, it's kind of like, uh, we all know what. Lack of success looks like. And, and sometimes that's tricky too, right? Because you know, the, the [00:18:00] person could have the finances, but they're not, they're, they're working too hard and they're not delegating and not building a team.

And so they end up burning out. At 37 years old. And so that's not success. Even if they have the money, that's just not success. Uh, we do know people that, uh, don't make a ton of money, but make enough. And they, they're, they're smart with their money. They're smart with spending. They have time on their hands.

And they do this shit for 40 years without burning out. And at the end of the day, when we're all 65 years old, they have more money for retirement than the chiropractor that was taking home 500, 000 a year and spending about 495 of it. Right. So, um, there, it looks differently. It could be different. And so you don't have to, I think sometimes a cynical person looks at like the upper upper echelon of their profession.

And says, well, I'm never going to be that. And so why even bother that's, that's the wrong way to look at it. Right.

Chris Chippendale: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And it's, [00:19:00] you're right. It's that, that idea of, cause we all kind of know this stuff, but then what people know and how they act often doesn't correlate, like we all know money isn't everything, but then subconsciously a lot of people will still act as if they have to generate that massive practice.

I mean, I, and I think what would really help a lot of people is to kind of. Take some time to sit down and think, not just what kind of practice do you want, but what sort of life do you want? And it's really good to think about what you want more of less of in your life. Like for me, I'm a massive extrovert.

I need a team. I spoke to this guy years ago when I was at a conference and he said, yeah, I don't get why people have associates. It's like, they're never as good as you. They're impacting your reputation, your business. And you, the ones who are good leave, like if you want to make more money, just charge more.

Um, I mean, he worked in Manhattan, so he could charge 300 on adjustment and stuff. Um, and you know, I didn't agree with that, but it put this slight seed of doubt in my head of, am I. Like in my head, do I want to like something about that lone wolf practice? Like that sounds [00:20:00] lovely and simple. Like the freedom, you know, like there's a lot of guys in online who are doing that with virtual reception, online booking.

And I had this little doubt of like, should I do that instead? I mean, that does sound a lot easier. And then post COVID, I got a little bit of a taste of what that would be like when we had nobody in the practice, apart from me and one patient, you know, front desk weren't in the building for ages and okay, that's not a fair comparison, it was COVID, but.

I had this taste of what it would be like just me and one patient at a time and working at that lower volume. And I hated it. I felt lonely. I was like, I missed the buzz in reception. I missed having my CAs here. I missed having somebody to chat to on a break. You know, I'm, I'm an extra. I need to be surrounded by people.

So for me, it made me realize, wow, I need a team. I absolutely have to have a team around me to enjoy what I do. Spoke to a friend of mine. She has, her practice is basically the front room of her house. Like she's a separate entrance, but one patient comes in, she sees, you know, a third of the amount of [00:21:00] patients I see in a week.

She works half the hours that I do. And she takes home a similar amount of money and she loves it because she's an introvert. She doesn't like managing people. She doesn't have to deal with the team. She just wants her and the one patient there, that interaction. So for her, that success, if I was to end up practicing like her or her, like me, we'd both feel like we'd failed somehow.

Um, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's really key to think, what's your personality? What do you want more of? And then, okay, what would a successful career built around that look like? Yeah,

Dr. Kevin Christie: a little bit of a public service announcement on if you are just one doc and by yourself, you got to be careful because, um, multiple things.

First one is just that, um, You know, if you get hurt or disabled, like then you may not have a business anymore at all. Um, if you have a team and you, and you do build associates and something like that happens, you still would have a business. It might be impacted, but you would still have a business there.

And so that's something to consider is what, what happens if the worst happens in those [00:22:00] areas. And so I want a lot of chiropractors that always have a backup plan for, for stuff like that. If they're going to be long term solo.

Chris Chippendale: Do you guys have like income protection? Is that a fit? Cause I. You know, like me, we'll have that.

But a lot of the newer grads out here have never been told about it. It's like you, you fall over and break a leg badly. You're out for six months. You need some sort. Well,

Dr. Kevin Christie: let me, uh, let me put on my cynicism hat for a second. And, uh, just like a lot of things that the United States had got abused. So getting a healthy disability insurance plan is challenging nowadays.

I've got one from 20 years ago. I think it, it would, it would pay me like 800 a month if I got, if, if I was in that scenario, since there, there may still be some out there, but, uh, it's not, it's not a great situation, but there are, uh, this is a good, good topic. Just quick to, to mention for audience. Um, you could look into Aflac plans and, um, they have short term disability situations.

So I would look into that for chiropractors, uh, that I think, [00:23:00] uh, all chiropractors, um, should definitely do that. Right. And, um, That would be important to do that.

Chris Chippendale: Or just have a buffer, have money set aside. A friend of mine, he's saying he only pays for insurance that he legally has to have. He's like, because my attitude is, well, they're the house, the house always wins.

I'm going to take that money and put it away. And then, you know, he, he makes sure he has a buffer. So if something goes wrong, he's like, well, that's taken care of. I can afford that. So I think that works too. It's just, yeah. Making sure you have a plan. I think it's definitely, it's part of that fear setting, right?

What happens if this happens?

Dr. Kevin Christie: It is absolutely. And so it's something to take into consideration. And I think the next thing is, is like, if you are. cynical about building a team. Cause I do see chiropractors out there who are cynical and they say, I can, uh, I'll never be able to afford a team. I don't want to have to manage a team.

Uh, I am introverted. I don't want to have a team, you know, like there, there's a lot of cynicism around, uh, building a team. [00:24:00] And. If you're in that younger years, and I mentioned it, it's like, you know, you have a higher risk of burning out if you're 15, 20, 25 years into this and you're doing everything yourself, you're scheduling patients, you're taking credit card payments, you're, you're, you're doing all the modalities, all the exercise, all like, you're just doing everything.

If you do that for a long period of time, um, you have a very high chance of burning out. And I, and I'm just concerned about, and I've been, we, we kind of talked about this earlier. I'm, I'm concerned about the, the DC that's the, um, like the 30 and 60, really the, you know, both of them, if they're not careful, the 30 minute, uh, solo DC can get to 20 and, and definitely, you know, have profit margin higher team around them.

Yeah. The 60 minute, uh, DC, I'm getting more and more concerned about, uh, they're, they're wanting to do everything for that patient for 60 minutes. And [00:25:00] you either got to charge a ton of money. Hmm to do that, or you're going to be spinning your wheels for quite a long time. And what I'm seeing is most of the crowd that is in that 60 minute DC realm.

That's just, again, they're doing everything. They're not delegating anything. And some of them are even using it in their marketing is like, you're going to get one on one doctor time for 60 minutes. No one else is doing that. Um, a lot of them are, Are younger, uh, they're, you know, they're, they're 28, they're 30, they're 26.

They're 33. Um, I, I don't know what, cause this hasn't been going on a long time. Like there wasn't many, you know, let's say when I graduated in 2005, there wasn't that many chiropractors doing one on one sessions of 60 minutes. So there's not a lot of 45 year olds right now that, that have been doing it for 20 years.

And so I just, I'm concerned. I'm concerned with the 28 year old and the 30 year old. Are they going to be able to sustain this into their forties, late thirties and fifties? Right?

Chris Chippendale: Yeah, [00:26:00] I think there's the issue with that is I do see some old DCs doing it, but they're not 45. They're usually more in their fifties.

And they're ones who generally have built a team and built a practice. Business is going fairly well, that's bought them the freedom to go, I want to really specialize on this niche. I don't need to worry about being the one treating the patients to keep the business going. You know, financially them and the business are pretty stable.

If they've done a really good job with that, then they can go, Oh, I want to go into this, whether it's like functional neurology or one on one rehab. And it's kind of to me, it's like, okay, we're turning your, you're turning patient time into more of a hobby. I don't have a problem with that per se, as long as people know that, yeah, there's this middle section.

You can't, you can't get there. You can't build the whole team while you're doing that yourself. So you can certainly do it that way. Um, and yeah, I, I mean, if I, I'm just going to ruffle a few feathers, but I honestly think most of the DCs who are doing this, there's a little bit of ego at play, there's a little bit of like.

Wanting to [00:27:00] be the one who has all the answers, wanting to be the one who does all the stuff, wanting to be out. It's an easy way to say I'm better than everybody, right? It's that's an easy mark. No one else is spending 60 minutes with you for this price. It's like, you know, there's a reason for that.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, it doesn't

Chris Chippendale: necessarily mean it's because you're the best or you're the most ethical.

Um, and I think not wanting to delegate often, it's because you don't want to give up control or you want to be the savior. Um, yeah. I know everyone's going to listen to this and go, Oh, that's not me. That's the others. But I've seen it a few times.

Dr. Kevin Christie: To your point, I do think that is a little bit of an ego thing.

And you said they, um, there's cynicism around the ability to delegate a lot of the care. And it'd be done effectively. And so it's almost a, it's a cynicism around that too, where, okay, um, no, I have to do this. I'm the doctor I'm trained in this. They need the world class care for the full 60 minutes. Uh, but I like to kind of flip that on that.

It is like, if you, if you had a little more of an optimistic take on that, you would believe in your leadership skills to be able to effectively train. Yeah. Your [00:28:00] team, uh, to be able to handle a lot of those things. Uh, and yeah, I think that's, that's kind of the mindset shift on it. And when I, uh, sometimes rail on the 60 minute DC, I'm not railing on it because of the clinical, um, that they're doing.

Like, obviously it's, that's really good. It's, it's really good clinically, but I'm just have a concern for them. Whereas if I was talking about the other shady chiropractors, I'm going to rail on them because the clinical is shit. Yeah.

Chris Chippendale: Yeah, I'm not doing

Dr. Kevin Christie: that. I'm not doing that to the 60 minute like they're doing great work.

I'm just concerned for them long term. And I think, you know, there has to be because some people ask me like, well, what's the solution? Right? I know one solution for the 60 minute has been, you know, Huge care plans that are, you know, ends up being like three, four, 500 a visit, that's fine. I'm all for, for getting out of the commoditization trap, but that's going to lead you down a path of like, okay, how many people in [00:29:00] your town can afford that?

What happens if after 10 visits, they spent 4, 000 and they're not getting better. That's going to be a tough pill to swallow. And you're gonna have to answer to that. And then, and then lastly. Um, you know, you're going to really have to get good at very like strategic sales and you're going to be good at it.

Um, so when people ask me like, well, what's the counter to it, what's the solution? Like I'm cool if the patient spends 60 minutes in your office, like I see it all the time with clinic gym hybrid, which is a great model because that model does not say that the doctor's doing the training, right? It says there's a, there's a doctor and there's a trainer.

So that model is great. I see patients spending 60 minutes in clinics where the doctor is spending 10, 12, 15 minutes with the patient, and then they're getting delegated out certain things like that. And that's going to work for me. It makes, it makes sense from that. Uh, but I think what's happening is there's a cynicism around the ability to go that route with [00:30:00] it.

Um, so I just, yeah, I think,

Chris Chippendale: I think part of what that is like, it probably links back to the cynicism, sometimes being a side of, of, you know, lacking competency, but that, that ability to manage a team, that ability to, to co, I mean, even if it's not a team, like we do, we have massage therapists here, but I co manage with local professionals a lot.

Like I'm constantly referring out of the practice, say, Hey, I think a couple of sessions with this acupuncturist I know here, I'll send you to our good S& C guy. They'll help build this up. Um, You know, that ability to know when and where to refer, when to co manage and are you going to stop seeing them when this person takes over?

Are you going to both see them together? Um, like that's tough. That's a challenge. I put a lot of focus in the last six, seven years into that, and I really enjoy that, but it's been a real learning process and it's not something, you know, um, Everybody talks about multidisciplinary care. It's in all the guidelines.

Everyone's told that's, that's the future. No one's really talking about how to do it that well. I mean, there's, there's some people, but I think the cynicism might come from a sense of that sounds quite difficult. I'd have to go out and [00:31:00] network. Like I'd have to go and find these other people. I'd have to go and work out if they're good or not.

You know, and that even networking alone is scary for some people, then you have to work out how, when to use them, when not to use them. What do you do if the patient says, Oh, you sent me that person. God, really didn't get on with it. Um, it is more complex. It is more of a challenge. So deciding to do it all yourself is, it's, it's a nice kind of comfort blanket for that as well.

I would, I'd push back a little bit on the clinical side. I totally agree that the, the one, two minute, you know, the, the high volume stuff out there, that's clinically bad. But I would say that actually, if you have a patient, like if they could have, you know, uh, a three hour session with you, I know it's extreme, but three hours with you and they pay, you know, so they pay like 300 for sake of the argument, or they could have six half hour visits with six different professionals.

They pay 50 each. They're going to feel like they got way better value from the second one because, you know, they're getting six brains. And yeah, you might [00:32:00] be, you might be pretty good at, you know, like needling and you might be pretty good at some soft tissue and you might be okay at adjusting, you might be all right at.

doing, you know, personal rehab plans and movement assessments and all this kind of stuff, but you can't be great at all of it. I think if the patient can see, you know, people who are great at all those things, the standard of care goes up, especially when you consider a lot of the folks who are trying to do this stuff and trying to fit everything into one session.

They've often not been doing this for more than a decade. So realistic, are you going to have learned to master all those different skills in that time compared to what another few clinicians might all be able to pull it together? I'm, I'm skeptical. You're really going to be better than three brains.

For example.

Dr. Kevin Christie: So you're being cynicic. So you have some cynicism right now.

Chris Chippendale: Gotcha. I'm optimistic. You can do better.

Dr. Kevin Christie: You're optimistic. It could change, right?

Chris Chippendale: Yeah. I believe other let's bring in other people. Other brains can help, but yeah. I'm doubtful that that would really be the best outcome for some patients, maybe, but yeah,

Dr. Kevin Christie: yeah.

And I, [00:33:00] you know, I, I'll say I, I'm a little, uh, I have cynicism around, um, some of the direction of that, but I'm optimistic that there is alternatives and that it can all be patient centered and the patient can still benefit and the doctor can thrive and the doctor. Can be present and feel good and not get burned out.

I'm, I'm optimistic that there's a path there. And I think you're doing a lot. I shouldn't say, I think, I know you're doing a lot to help, uh, chiropractors doing that. I think this episode will help me maybe rethink some things a little bit, maybe read growth mindset, read, uh, learned optimism, optimism, and then look up.

Uh, Tim Ferriss is fear setting. I think that could be a good start for them. But, uh, this has been a pleasure, Chris. I always, always enjoy talking to you and it's not only because of your accent, but that's a big part of it. Uh, where, where can they find what you got going on?

Chris Chippendale: Yeah, absolutely. So best place to find me is I'm very active on Facebook.

I'm in, um, your group on current marketing. I'm in the FTCA. Um, you can go to facebook. [00:34:00] com slash patient centered. Um, and. All my website is patient centered. co. uk. I know we'll put this in the show notes. Um, I did a dumb thing and I named my company after something that's spelt differently in the UK and the U S um,

Dr. Kevin Christie: but

Chris Chippendale: if you go on Facebook and search Chris Chippendale, I'm pretty sure I'm the only Chippendale in chiropractic.

Um, I don't think there's any others. Something else

Dr. Kevin Christie: might pop up, but that's a different story.

Chris Chippendale: Put chiropractic afterwards. Oh, don't search in the office. Maybe, but I take the responsibility for that. Um, But yeah, that's the best place to find me. What I do have as well is if people want some additional help on this, one of the things that I think no matter what style of practice you want to go into, your ability to demonstrate trust with patients is, is fundamental.

So I have a free video series that people can get as well on, um, it's a concept I stole from John Morrison. I really like the way he put it called the trust equation. Um, but I've added to that in some ways you can basically demonstrate trust right away with patients. So we bought the link and it's, it's patient center.

co. uk slash free trust. Um, if you just want some extra cons of [00:35:00] helping out, that's the best way to get that.

Dr. Kevin Christie: All right. Perfect. We'll put it in the show notes. So, uh, thank you and appreciate your time today. My pleasure.

Chris Chippendale: Good chatting again, Kevin. Take

care.