EPISODE 371: Building and Investing In Your Brand with Tony Katakis, DC

Hey, chiropractors. We're ready for another Modern Chiropractic Marketing Show with Dr. Kevin Christie, where we discuss the latest in marketing strategies, contact marketing, direct response marketing, and business development with some of the leading experts in the industry.

[00:00:00] Hey docs, welcome to another episode, seven years running without missing a week of modern chiropractic mastery. This is your host. Dr. Kevin Christie. And today I'm excited to bring on Dr. Tony Katakis. And he is someone I've known over the last few years, got to work with him and his practice and kind of help him out in the early stages.

But, uh, he has done the leg work for sure. And he's someone that has done a great job in a short period of time of building a great clinical practice, but also a great brand. He's upping his leadership skills and growing his practice from that. And it's been really cool to see. And we. Uh, bring him on today to discuss how to build your brand, not from a logo and color scheme standpoint, but from really what the, uh, community and even you can sometimes transcend that community and what your colleagues in the profession can think about your clinic and how you can turn your practice into a, uh, You know, really a [00:01:00] destination and that's what he is doing in the St.

Louis area. And it's been cool to see how he's done that, how he's grown, um, implemented great clinical, but then some strategic business strategies, which he dives into. And I want, you know, a lot of you in there that are, you know, busy with patients, you don't have a lot of help. You might be busy, but you're, you're not having a ton of profit margin to build a team.

And you're spending a lot of time with patients. Thanks. and you become a time based kind of entity. Uh, he, he, he was there and, and he got himself out of that, uh, broke through that ceiling of complexity and now has multiple doctors and really the sky is the limit. So I think you're going to learn a lot from him.

Got a lot of energy, a lot of, uh, great, great potential and future ahead of him and excited to see him grow. And I know you will learn quite a bit from him. So without further ado, here is my interview with Dr. Tony Katakis.

Dr. Kevin Christie: [00:02:00] All right, Tony, really, really excited to have you on the show today. It's been a, it's been a little while since we've, we've chatted, but we got to know each other quite a bit, which was cool. And I'm excited to have you on to, you know, hear about your growth and what you've done. But before we dive into that, tell us a little bit about yourself personally and professionally, and then we'll, we'll dive into it.

Tony Katakis: Cool. Well, first of all, thank you, Kevin. I, uh, this is such a cool moment because I've been listening to this podcast since 2019. Uh, when I was trying to figure out what the heck I was going to do with my, my life and my practice. And you still had the podcast where it was the desk jockey podcast, in addition to the modern chiropractic podcast.

Uh, and I, I, I so many mornings prior to going to class, I would, I would plug this in and I would listen to your interviews. And so this is so cool. And. Um, even you coached me, uh, in practice and got me out of so many ruts that, that at the time I couldn't figure out how to get out of. [00:03:00] And, and you were a huge influence and, and mentor to me in this process.

And I'm sure we'll, we'll talk about all that here, uh, in a moment, but, um, yeah, I'm, I'm from Detroit, Michigan, or just North of Detroit, Michigan. I moved down to Logan. Or St. Louis to go to Logan. And then from there, I, I was a strength coach, college athlete before. So I found a facility in St. Louis where I could work part time as a strength coach and go to school.

And, um, you know, throughout that process. I grew a lot of really great relationships here in St. Louis, and I had the opportunity to, you know, to find kind of a home here. And when it was coming time to graduate, I was looking all over the country for a facility or for a place or for people that were basically identical to what I already had here.

So when I graduated, I decided that. You know, why leave when, when I have a really [00:04:00] cool opportunity, I have a really cool community, some really great connections I've already cultivated here. And so, uh, that's where about five years ago. Exactly. I graduated April, 2019. Uh, I, I started. A practice out of two closets and like two storage closets and physical therapy clinic.

And from there it was, uh, it was all cash. I luckily met a couple of strength coaches in the facility who funneled me a lot of their clientele at the time, because I was able to establish some, some authority, show them some value, help their guys. In the beginning, I was doing a ton of work for free. I was trying to just build relationships, make friends first and foremost, and then provide value on top of that.

And then eventually when I earned some of those referral sources, they started sending me people. And I still remember the first patient that ever asked me how much they owed me for a service. I, I pooped my pants. So [00:05:00]

Dr. Kevin Christie: I

Tony Katakis: had no plan. I had no idea what I was doing. And then from there it just grew and grew and grew a hundred percent cash.

Uh, and in the beginning it was actually straight cash. Like I didn't even have a credit card processor for about six months. I didn't have a website for like a year and a half. It was ridiculous. I made every mistake you could imagine. Uh, and that's where it started to work, but, but my pricing was way off.

My time structure was way off, uh, everything about my, I didn't have branding. I, everything I did was bad. And that's where like, it got busy enough where I was like, Hey, maybe something's here. And it's, it's, it's working obviously. But then, uh, that's when you and I connected and then you allowed me to see so many things, so many mistakes I was making, uh, from, from undercharging.

Basically. I remember the conversation, like it was yesterday. You told me. That I was making massage therapy money and, and you were 100 percent right. There were personal trainers charging more [00:06:00] per hour in the same community than, than I was charging per hour. And, you know, I went to all this school and picked up a quarter million in student loan debt.

And from there, just, uh, you helped me, uh, understand that, you know, you need to charge what you're worth. You need to be comfortable with that conversation and you need to be able to build in that value. You need to be clear and concise with, with report of findings and telling people what they need. And don't be afraid to tell people that they need to come in more than two times to get out of pain and to fix a problem.

And then the biggest thing that you did for me too, at the time was I was, I was basically booked up mostly, uh, for, for as much as I could really handle. And I was doing all the things from, from scheduling to collecting payments to, uh, rescheduling and talking to parents on the phone and. Delivering the treatment obviously and doing the rehab and all this stuff.

And I remember you said you're doing all this stuff You're burnt [00:07:00] out. You have no time. You have no mental energy. Why in the world? Don't you hire somebody? And I was like, for the first time, I was like, that's a possibility. And then from there you

Dr. Kevin Christie: pooped, then you pooped your pants again.

Tony Katakis: I pooped my pants again.

Cause I had to realize, I realized that I had to go. Pay money for, for somebody. And that was that first, that first bottleneck in the business where you helped me figure that out, address that situation. You even helped me through the hiring process and how to manage all that. And then once we got through that, I had to make that first decision of, okay, well at the time relative to a new graduate, right?

I was like, Hey, I'm making some money. Uh, we had, we got into that quote unquote six figure mark and revenue and with very little overhead, but in order to get to the next step to actually scale to see more people to build the business beyond that, that, you know, [00:08:00] initial bottleneck, I had to take a step back.

I had to pay somebody to help me basically build the foundation. So I could scale up. And from there. We were able to do that till we hit the next bottleneck. And then we had that same conversation where it's like, well, Hey, um, you know, we need to scale here. We need to scale there. We're out of space.

We're out of this. We're out of that. We're out of time, energy, effort, focus. I'm not good at doing this thing. Why am I still doing this thing? And then at every step of the way, having to have that conversation with myself saying, you know, or delaying gratification rather, instead of taking money home today, instead of bankrolling all this profit today or whatever, I need to be able to reinvest back into the business.

So that it can grow into something greater, you know, and so that we can actually house future associates and other employees. Because when I'm, when I was by myself doing everything, I couldn't afford to build an actual business.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Right. Yeah. And that's where it's like, you [00:09:00] know, it's been about a year and I've just been kind of keeping up with, with your growth.

And it's been cool to see that now you have associate doctors and that's something a lot of chiropractors don't. Don't, um, envision themselves having, and I want to unpack a few things, uh, with that. One of the things you talked about earlier was kind of that hourly capacity. And I do talk about that a lot where, um, you know, whether you're seeing someone for 10 minutes, 15 or 30, whatever it is, you got to do the math and say, okay, if you can see four people in an hour and you charge 75, that's 300 an hour capacity that in most areas is going to be Be healthy, the more, the better, um, you know, maybe in San Francisco, 300 wouldn't be, but that's a big mistake.

A lot of chiropractors are making is there's not enough meat on the bone as far as profit margin to then reinvest into the business, which is key. So that was 1 thing you talked about. I think the other thing I want you to just speak to for a minute. Is, um, I think chiropractors are [00:10:00] also afraid of the transition and leadership it takes to go from a lone wolf like you were to having, uh, an employee's having a preceptor program and, and having associates.

So, just to set the context for people, you now have preceptors coming in because you've hit that mark as far as the amount of years you've been practicing. You've got multiple associates working with you. Um, what's that leadership transition been like? Because before you just had to lead kind of yourself and your patients.

Now you've got to lead yourself, your patients and team members. What's that maturity been like?

Tony Katakis: Right at that. It's a total growing up process. Um, as a new grad and a lone wolf, if I wanted to take a nap midday and go walk my dog on Jane, I could literally just press a little coffee break button and then pull down a 3 hour window that I can go home and take a nap and no one's going to ask me any questions and no one's going to wonder where I am.

And if, if I can see people, you know, later on [00:11:00] still, I didn't have to answer to anybody and I didn't have to worry about anything, but at the same time, I didn't have anybody holding me accountable at the same time. So, uh, once I, once I brought somebody in, it was, uh, it was completely different because now you're not on your own time anymore, you're on the business's time and the business has to continue to, To move and grow and to innovate and to solve problems in order to grow.

And then from there, like, that's where I basically, when you're talking about leadership and that other level of practice, you're, you're inheriting a second job, essentially. And if you're still treating full time, if you're still in the clinical side of things full time and, and, and if you keep practicing and you keep having a good product, that's going to continue to grow.

So you're only going to get more busy on the clinical side. And then now the operational drag of the leadership and all that. Continues to be another essentially [00:12:00] full time job that I've had to really struggle and, and laser focus on, um, because if you don't make time for it, then, then things just kind of fall apart.

So that's probably been the biggest obstacle is it's balancing and working through both of those at the same time. Um, but it's also been awesome because we've been able to build a team, a culture and a brand that's more than just. Tony Katakis. Chiropractor, right? And that's the last thing I wanted to do.

I wanted to have a team, a brand, um, and, and, and other people that I just really love to come to work with every day. And that's kind of what we've, what we've built here, but it's not, it's not all sunshine and rainbows.

Dr. Kevin Christie: You, you definitely segued me really well. Cause that's what I was going to talk about branding.

And that was what had me reach out to you on Instagram to, to get on here because you've done a phenomenal job from, you know, being a lone wolf without a brand, without a website. With it, I love [00:13:00] bringing guests on that have gone from say, you know, like what you said about like not even having a website and, and, and not even having credit card processor to now.

I would consider what you've built is an actual strong brand and it's been cool to, to see that. Um, and I think what chiropractors that are listening have to realize about building a strong brand and what it does is it not only drives business to your practice. We know that we can conceptualize that and we understand it.

But what it also does is it positions you well in the profession so that you improve your talent acquisition. I know you're in a little bit of a beneficial situation being in the St. Louis area and you got Logan right there, which is the Harvard of chiropractic schools, as you and I know, um, It, but yeah, but there's, uh, I've seen it done in other areas where there's not a chiropractic school there is when you have a strong brand and you're doing things in the profession, you're going to [00:14:00] attract talent, preceptors, chiropractors, and things like that.

Speak to us a little bit about what, you know, getting real clear on your brand has done for your business. Not just from let's put the side, the patients coming in the door, but just as far as the talent acquisition.

Tony Katakis: Right. Uh, well, there's two big pieces to, to the brand and talent acquisition. Number one, we've invested a lot back into media, right?

Like I've, I've spent money on professional videographers and photographers and people to do websites and build funnels and all that stuff. Uh, so that's been a huge piece of it. Um, I think another thing that helped fuel that, or what's helped me kind of in the chiropractic community, especially here locally, With the students is having a following on social media.

I, I just, I have a lot of friends who do social media outside of the Kyber profession, and so I was influenced well, or a ton from, from them on, on that [00:15:00] side and I would pick their brains and learn things. And at the time, when I first started posting on social media, carousels were going crazy. And so I was posting carousel videos with the carousel.

Good hashtags. And I got featured to the explore page a bunch of times, and I would have single posts, get hundreds and hundreds of thousands of views and return probably, you know, several thousand followers each time. And there, when I, when I kept my consistency and my rhythm and the quality of my posts up, I think this was in 2020, maybe, um, that momentum kept building.

And I remember. All of a sudden it was like, boom, I had 10, 000 followers on Instagram. I was like, Holy cow, something's there. So I kept going. And then eventually that 10 turned into 20. And then, you know, within the last year or so that 20 turned into 30. And I think that's given me a little bit of leverage where local Cairo students or chiropractors, or even like, this is another kind of [00:16:00] sidebar real quick.

Orthopedic surgeons follow me on social media. Local medical doctors follow me on social media. Local dentists follow me as all these people follow me on social media. And these are people without huge social media brands. They have, you have maybe a hundred followers and they follow like 79 people and they post pictures of them fishing with their kids, but they watch.

Every single story I post, they watch every workshop that we put out. They see every carousel and reel we do. So that has kind of helped too, but back to the social media, I think when, when chiropractic students see that they, it just gains a little bit more attraction or, or interest, and then from there, I'll get a lot of DMS from chiropractic students.

So that's been a big piece there. Just having a social media following, um, we've done it for the practice for the brand by creating a separate social media. So it's not just about me. And we've invested thousands and thousands of dollars into professional [00:17:00] video. Um, and we've even invested some money into the equipment too.

Like we bought the lighting, we bought the microphones, we got the fancy iPhone, we have a decent camera. So if we need to do homemade stuff, we can do that too. Uh, so we have the tools and the supplies and then, um, from the student talent acquisition process, I think the most important thing that we've done, uh, goes back to that initial hire that you, you pushed me to do or to go get.

Um, we, I hired somebody who could do a lot of admin stuff. She's she's incredible. She's multi talented. She can talk to somebody on the phone. She could sell a package. She can keep me organized. Uh, we utilize, um, EOS. Um, from, uh, from Gino Wichman. Uh, so traction, EOS, it's been a game changer. If you have a practice or if you're in a practice that doesn't use it, uh, I couldn't recommend it enough.

It's amazing. But she runs EOS, uh, but she was also a [00:18:00] personal trainer, so she can do recap for me too, which allowed me to see more people per hour. But in the beginning, she didn't know DNS. She didn't know grip. She didn't know a lot of our processes. So we had to train her. So we started doing these workshops every Friday after we saw patients in the morning, and we invited the local students who would shadow on a consistent basis.

To come join. So if I was teaching her these details, well, I would rather not just, you know, have the same conversation eight times. Like, let's all get together. Let's group think. Let's, let's show you how, you know, because I learned it from, from Brett Winchester. He's my hero and he's taught me everything I know.

And, and Ben Fergus with grip, how do I, how do I teach them what those guys taught me and how do we really improve that patient experience? And so we started doing that every Friday and that was two years ago. And then every Friday we've continued to have those workshops and it's a hundred percent [00:19:00] free, I think it's, it's the best part of my week.

It's, it's the most fun I have in practice getting these groups of people together to talk about rehab, to talk about difficult cases, to talk about, um, Differential diagnosis, uh, and that's that's even graduated and transition or built up into what it is. Now, the beginning of this year, adding the 2 additional associate docs, um, 3 by the time this will probably come out, uh, we needed a way to come together and to continuously grow.

Because it's not just about me anymore. We have to share these thoughts and ideas. And so we started having round table discussions on Tuesdays. We have our business level 10 meeting from us on Mondays. We have round table discussions, difficult cases on Tuesdays. We also have a Dak bar. Dr. Jessica who's in town.

And she helps us so much. She guides us through the weeds with difficult cases research. Um, so she runs [00:20:00] those Tuesdays. Uh, uh, uh, diagnostic ultrasound. She does that too. She's awesome. Uh, Thursdays we do deep dive into assessment. So we basically pick a body part and we go into everything from MDT to traditional orthopedic assessment and and how we can assess or find a good diagnosis for you.

Both from an anatomical orthopedic perspective, but then also functional perspective with everything from SFMA to grip to DNS. Like what are we looking for? And then most importantly, we, we do Fridays that's open to the entire student population here. And two years ago, we would have like five people at these meetings.

In the beginning of the trimester, when everybody's all juiced up, we've had like 50. Um, on a consistent basis, we get somewhere between 20 and 30. And it's the most incredible thing. Cause it's a group of other people who are on the same page who want to be the best versions of themselves who want to be the best chiropractor that they can possibly want [00:21:00] to, you know, see what's on the other end of the cliff.

Like they're still working their way up the Hill through school. They just want to be able to peek up and see what's on the other side. And, and I'm an open book. Like I try to just provide as much value. And help those people as much as I can, because I used to be that person. I, every single one of them, uh, and I was starving for mentorship.

I was starving for application. I was starving for integration. And, uh, yeah, that's, so that's what we do. And from there, you can imagine we have like a bazillion people who are. Yeah, come up to us afterwards and say, hey, I want a shadow and then we kind of a tier system where people start. They have to come to the workshops so they can understand what the heck we're doing, but to, we start to get them in as a shadow.

It's just to see if, like, they're a good fit personality wise. Are they even interested in this style of care? And then the next level would be like a volunteer intern, where we give them a [00:22:00] little bit of hands on, um, uh, experience with, with guiding people through rehab exercises, showing them basic stretches, like that kind of thing.

Nothing crazy at all. And then from there, it's basically our, our process of cultivating, growing, and, and building a really good preceptor program where now those people who've been with us for years become preceptors.

Dr. Kevin Christie: And it's great. And it's just kind of reflecting that, that higher level of leadership that you've gotten to with it.

And I want to touch base on a few things there that I heard, you know, um, one of the things we're talking a lot about in our mastermind groups and with some of our coaching clients is this idea of the Swiss army knife, because what we're finding is a lot of chiropractors have a hard time paying themselves what they want, hiring a front, a delineated front desk person, and then hiring a CA.

So what we're kind of saying is like, can we find a Swiss army knife where they can [00:23:00] take payment, they can schedule patients, but they can also do rehab. And we really want that chiropractor to try to maximize their license as much as they possibly can. Kind of a Josh Satterly concept of try to maximize your license as absolutely much as you can delegate a lot of the other things.

And I think, you know, there's definitely. A tug of war battle within the, the rehab profession right now, rehab DC profession of a lot of chiropractors that do rehab, not thinking they can train and delegate it out. But people like you and a lot of others and Winchester and me, like we've learned, like you can train these folks to do well.

You've built a whole system around doing that, which then frees you up to again, maximize your, your license, which is, you know, Which is amazing. And then I just want to touch on the last thing and segue into a topic about it. And you talked a lot about reinvesting in yourself. And so you're reinvesting in yourself and your business.

You're reinvesting your business with time, like you just mentioned with [00:24:00] meetings and workshops, but also. Money, you know, it's, it's interesting to see as a, as a business owner, like you are, uh, if you don't mind share again, like you, before we recorded, like you're still driving the same car, go ahead and tell us like how you're doing with that.

Tony Katakis: Absolutely. Yeah. So we're, we're five years in. And, uh, we've doubled the practice over and over and over and over and over and over again. Like, uh, we're. We're in a really good spot and we're only getting started and we're doing a couple of things from a recurring revenue model membership model in addition to, um, you know, packages and pay per per visit type service.

But, We've grown, we've got now 4 chiropractors and a bar, we've got a, like a front desk, Swiss army knife. And then we have someone else that helps us with social media. Um, and and that kind of thing in the back. And so along the way, we've grown revenue wise, and I think from a business perspective, or from a business owner perspective.

Especially early on when you [00:25:00] have no, no context, you don't know what's on the other side. You don't know how this thing works. You see revenue and you think, Oh, that's my income. It's like, not even close. Um, instead, uh, as, as you go and it grows this monster that you're building becomes more and more hungry.

And I think every step of the way, uh, you have to continue to feed it. So I've been forced with this, this, this concept over again, where, you know, I could buy a house. And I could sacrifice the growth of the business. I could drive a nice car and I could continue to sacrifice the growth of the business.

But instead, like I I've, I've chose to go a hundred percent all in and my fiance wants to kill me because we still live in the same apartment, uh, that I I've been living in since I graduated, basically, because it's so close to the office and I love it, but. Uh, she wants a house in a yard and places to put things and I'm still driving the same, you know, car that I [00:26:00] drove when I was in school.

It's a 4 cylinder Chevy cruise. That's been in an accident 6 years ago that I got for pennies on the dollar because it's all I could afford when I was in, I was in grad school. So. In order to grow, uh, we, I've had to reinvest back into the business because it was just me in those two closets. Right. But in order to bring on associates, in order to bring on preceptors, in order to have a brand and, and, you know, invest into media and all these things, I've had to, uh, expand the space and I've had to put a ton of money into things that I didn't even know existed.

You know, things like. Uh, you know, taxes is a huge thing. Well, one of the things that you put me on back in the day, uh, was the book profit first, right? And so if you look at, uh, an early startup business, if you look at the pie chart, they, they allow you in, in this model to [00:27:00] take 50 percent of, of take home, but then you got to allocate 15 percent for taxes.

Right. And that's a pretty big chunk right off the bat, but then also that, that 30 to 35 percent of. Of overhead operating expenditures. Anytime when I brought on somebody, they have a salary, right? They need to be paid and we want to even incentivize them on top of that. So that costs money. Uh, we want more bells, bells and whistles for the clinic.

That costs money. We bring out more people and we need more tables. We need. More TVs. We need, you know, better technology. We need more whiteboards. We need all of this stuff adds up. We need turf in the new rehab space. It's like 10, 15 grand in turf. Like what? Uh, we, we got professional athletes coming in.

Cool. We want to frame the jerseys and put them on the wall. You wouldn't believe how much frames per jerseys costs. Like it's, it's insane. And these, These, these, um, expenses just continue to add up and then, you know, [00:28:00] uh, you need to invest in coaching. You need to invest help. You need to invest in, uh, like, different software systems that are going to continue to help you grow.

Uh, and so that's a lot of the stuff that we've done. We've even gotten into the, uh. Into the direct response paid ads world, where we have a system with Facebook ads and Google ads and, and Instagram and all that. So that costs money too. And, uh, there's just a lot of things that we've chose to reinvest back into, uh, that, um, you know, that, that obviously.

Take away from my ability to pay student loans and buy a new house.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. And it's that delayed gratification and go into that profit first model. Um, what some people forget about that target allocation percentages, and I'm not a profit first expert, but, um, there's column a, b, c, d, and e. And column a is only where the owner takes, I think, 50%.

But as you get to like, say column [00:29:00] C, you'll notice it. I think it says 20 percent for the owner. And I think that's a mistake that a lot of, um, non like young chiropractors that are not practice or business owners, they, they think once that practice gets to a certain level where you are hiring doctors, the owners 50%, right?

They, you know, It's usually a lot lower percentage because of overhead. And then as you hire, uh, and then taxes is a kick in it, you know, uh, it's like, so, um, there's a lot of a misunderstanding there. That's why I wish a lot of the newer chiropractors coming out had better financial training as what it, what an owner's actually making.

Like they, they think we're like, Burying money in the backyard a lot of times, and they don't realize what the investment takes. And that a lot of us for a long time are still driving the old car and living in the old place. I didn't buy my first house until I was 40. Right. Um, and ironically, a lot of the [00:30:00] newer DCs coming out, which I get it because life has definitely gotten more expensive.

Like there's just no way I used to like tell the story back in my day, but like now it's just gotten, it has gotten out of hand with the cost of living. So I get it. Um, but I would love for an associate coming out to reinvest in themselves in a way that looks a little bit different. They may not have the money to like invest in something, but reinvest with like a little bit of risk and then reinvest in like joining a practice like yours or someone else that's really compatible with what their future is going to be and have a little more delayed gratification and, and take a livable income.

Um, that first few years, in my opinion. Is not a money making venture for, for new graduates. It's, it's more of like building your craft. And then you, you, you, you'll have money down the road and you'll build something. Same thing as when you open up your own practice, like you're realizing. And so leaving it like this, I just think that, uh, the, the, the new DC [00:31:00] Um, has to in a mindset switch, realize like reinvesting in yourself as a new DC is sometimes taking that sacrifice and taking the job that's going to set you up with a great mentor and a great opportunity and really hone in your craft.

Then the return on that investment will come down the road versus 15, 000, uh, to join a clinic that is not congruent with what they want to do.

Tony Katakis: Right. I think you had a good point there about the associates. It's easy to see the money coming in and think that the owner of the clinic is just piling money into the trunk and then driving away.

Profit first model, if you were to look at that same first category profit first, just for a new, a new associate practice, say they're in a 50 50 split and say they get to take home 50 percent of the revenue. Yeah, well, then right after that, we have to still pay 15 percent of that revenue. So that only [00:32:00] leaves taxes.

Yeah. To taxes, right? Uh, and then that leaves, you know, what is it 45 or, uh, sorry, uh, 35, 45 for, for, uh, operating expenditures and then profit margin. But operating expenditures, especially if you're just getting started and you only have a couple associates. Mm-Hmm. , like, there's still so much that has to go back into the practice in terms of rent, in terms of, uh, the overhead, uh, recurring costs of, of the different software programs and everything that you use.

Uh, needles. Uh, uh, advertising costs, marketing costs, direct response ad costs, uh, on top of that, like stuff's always breaking, things need improving. The other day, I just spent like 12 grand and new tables, you know, like that, that, that's a huge percentage of what we made that month or, or that quarter.

Right? And so. Those continuously add up. And then after that, maybe there's five or 10 percent of overall revenue that that associate generated for [00:33:00] profit margin. And then guess what happens to that profit margin. We hold onto it. Then we just reinvest it back into the next thing that allows us to grow the business.

And so we want our people to have an ability to. To play a bigger role in this practice and in this brand and in the system. And if we can open up more locations and they could be a, a partial owner in, in a, in a new location or something like that, that's, we're trying to give people that entrepreneur, uh, uh, journey or that entrepreneur path where they can, they can participate in the upside, but in the beginning.

We're all working together. We're like, we're all shoveling the same dirt and no one's, you know, no, one's really getting rich off of anybody. It takes a lot of time, energy, and effort, and a lot of economy of scale before anybody really makes any money.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yep. No, it's true. And I think that's a part of the education that we need to have for chiropractors that, you know, a little delay gratification, make a, A good living livable, but really work at your [00:34:00] craft.

And I think, you know, I I'm 44 now and I would say 33 is when I was like, okay, I'm making a nice living here and this is going real well. And I've built a practice. I was able to buy my, my office real estate. So I felt like, um, you know, 33, so six, seven years in was where. You know, uh, I, I was really comfortable with earning a very nice professional, um, income.

And, you know, that's gonna be different for everybody. There's a lot of different circumstances out there, but there is going to be some delayed gratification. And if you do the right things, then that will come. And then is there anything I didn't ask you that you would just like, you know, someone's listening to this, whether they're honestly You know, they might be new DC, but we got a lot of coverage has been doing this for 20 years.

And they're trying to re they're trying to like reverse engineer something that they put together that wasn't necessarily the best way. But, um, any other words of wisdom for our chiropractors?

Tony Katakis: I mean, [00:35:00] one of our biggest things, um, is just always growing. And I think that's one thing that probably helps our, our environment is, uh, having other people who are like minded in that way who are very growth minded.

Because I always tell my people and I always tell the students my idea of happiness isn't a margarita on the beach. My, my idea of happiness isn't a fancy vacation with palm trees. Rather it's it's the pursuit of growth. It's the pursuit of. Of building something and really coming together with other people who are like minded and building something together.

And that's really like that culture pieces is what we're really working hard to build here and having the right people in that culture who are also growth minded, who also see that, you know, you have your ups and downs in practice. But as long as I'm growing, as long as I'm learning, as long as I'm getting better.

That really solves a lot of the problems that you might be having because [00:36:00] they might be problems today, but they won't be tomorrow as long as you continuously grow and get better. And that, uh, having other people around me who are also like that, that's probably been. The biggest thing that's contributed to one, my overall happiness, but then also just the success or growth of the business, uh, is having those people who are, who are growth minded and, you know, aren't energy vampires or aren't like me, me, me type of people.

Uh, cause we've had that and, and we find pretty quick that those people don't fit in well in our system and with our culture and with our people. And so it's important for me to remind myself that it's about the team. It's about growth. It's about the culture. It's about, you know, the greater good of humanity here.

Uh, and then other people, uh, with the same mindset, we, we can all kind of come together and do that, that thing.

Dr. Kevin Christie: That's awesome, man. Well, Tony, this has been great. And, and where can our audience find you on Instagram? [00:37:00]

Tony Katakis: On Instagram, I'm Dr. Tony Katakis, uh, T O N Y K A T A K I S. And then, uh, St. Louis Sports Clinic on Instagram.

Also, uh, S T L, Sports Clinic is the tag on Instagram. We try to put out stuff a few times a week. And then on my Instagram page, I try to just put out different exercises and stuff that, that I'm kind of working on at the time.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Awesome, man. Well, I love it. This has been a pleasure. It's been really cool to see your growth.

And, uh, I bet you five years from now, uh, we'll get back on here and you'll be just, you know, all over the place. I'll love it. Awesome. Thank you. Good stuff, man. I wouldn't be.