EPISODE 370: The Mutually Beneficial Associate/Owner Chiropractor Relationship with LIsa Goodman, DC

Hey, chiropractors. We're ready for another Modern Chiropractic Marketing Show with Dr. Kevin Christie, where we discuss the latest in marketing strategies, contact marketing, direct response marketing, and business development with some of the leading experts in the industry.

Dr. Kevin Christie: [00:00:00] All right. Welcome to the show, Lisa. I really appreciate your time today. Excited to dive into a very important topic that is on top of mind of a lot of chiropractors, be it, uh, uh, students, uh, looking for employment or obviously owners. And we're going to dive into associates and all things associates.

But before we do that, uh, tell us about yourself personally and professionally, and then we'll go from there.

Lisa Goodman, DC: Right. Okay. Thank you so much for having me, Kevin. I'm really excited to be here today. I've been in chiropractic private practice for almost 18 years in Denver, Colorado. I started as a one woman show, just like a lot of your listeners are going to.

And I've got anywhere between nine and 11 employees at any given time, a couple of other chiropractors, um, associates, a couple of massage therapists and acupuncture. So I love. Chiropractic. I love practicing. Um, I also love mentoring and teaching. We have interns at our practice. I love doing [00:01:00] events. I work a lot with the USGA and some other sports organizations.

My passion in clinical practice is working with youth athletes. When I was in school, I always thought to myself, all of my, all of my classmates wanted to work professional sports. And I always said, I'd rather work with the kid who's going to be the professional athlete. How can we help him get set up or her to not have these injuries that make everybody else retire at the end of high school?

So that's a little bit about me. I've got two teenage boys myself. Um, like I said, I live in Denver and I love what I do. So I'm happy, super excited to get into this topic about associates today.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, definitely. Where'd you go to chiropractic school?

Lisa Goodman, DC: Thank you. Yeah. I went to Palmer West. I graduated in 2006.

Yeah.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Cool. Yeah. I graduated in very end of 2005. So we're about the same, uh, practice experience, right?

Lisa Goodman, DC: That's yep. Yep. Perfect.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Did you go right to Denver, uh, after that?

Lisa Goodman, DC: We went right to Denver. I'm from the Midwest. I'm a Minneapolis girl [00:02:00] and my husband's from Detroit and we were in Bay area for eight years actually.

And then when I graduated, I said, well, I want to open a practice right away. And I don't think the Bay area is really the place that that's going to happen. Plus we want to start a family and have a place for our dog to run around. So we kind of threw a dart at the map and said, well, Denver looks pretty cool.

We know one or two people there. And we went ahead and did it.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. And it's grown since you've been there. So that's good.

Lisa Goodman, DC: Yeah,

Dr. Kevin Christie: I'll be out in Denver in a couple of weeks, uh, obviously before this probably releases, but, uh, looking forward to spending some time there. So I hear it keeps on growing.

Lisa Goodman, DC: It does.

Come check out my practice. If you come to town,

Dr. Kevin Christie: you know, I probably will have time. I'll, I'll try to do that. That's something I try to do. Um, when I, when I do travel, I just was in Nashville and, uh, visited a buddy's practice there. I hadn't seen his new place. So that was pretty cool. So it's always nice.

Uh, we were talking about that. Um, Amongst some of our chiropractors, it's always good. And I think our audience could hear this is that like when you do travel, [00:03:00] um, pick out other chiropractic practices to stop by and hang out for a little bit. You don't have to be there all day, but check it out, see what other chiropractors are doing and get some ideas.

Lisa Goodman, DC: I love that. I mean, that's. It's one of the very first things I, I talk about or, or mentioned in the book is chapter one is, you know, networking, but making sure that you just drop by other practices when you're in school. But I love the fact that you're pointing out how important it is to do when you've been in practice for 10 or 15 years already.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, you got to get, keep getting good ideas and things are always changing. So check that out. And we'll, we'll definitely dive into the book a little bit. Excited that, um, you, you were able to launch that at Parker this past year. I was there, but, uh, we missed each other. So maybe next year, Parker.

Lisa Goodman, DC: Yeah.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Let's dive into associates. Uh, you know, it's, it's a, it's a broad topic. We could probably talk about this for a Joe Rogan four hour podcast, but we limit to about 45 minutes. So let's start out with, um, you know, like when does the practice owner, um, when do they know it's probably [00:04:00] that time that I need an associate and I can kind of handle bringing on an associate.

Lisa Goodman, DC: So first thing with any business, any good business advisor will tell you never to grow until you are bursting at the seams. And I shouldn't say never, but it's a good rule of thumb that you have enough patients in our case to help provide an associate with the patient. I think one thing that, um, owners make a mistake of A lot of times, a lot of times is I'm going to hire an associate for a commission.

So I don't have to pay them unless they see a patient. And then they're going to go out and market and bring a bunch of patients into my practice, right? That's what everybody thinks. That's the wrong way to think about it. What you want to do is think about, do I have too many patients that I can't treat by myself anymore?

Do I want to extend my hours? Then I can't fill them all myself anymore. Do I want to add? A service that I don't provide. Let's say I'm a sports chiropractor, but I think there's a big need for pediatrics in my area. That would be a good reason to hire somebody who [00:05:00] specializes in something different than you do, which is another suggestion I have.

Um, and then do you, um, are you willing and able to mentor somebody? So that's actually the more the question of should you ever bring on an associate, not just when should you, but if you're not the type that's willing to teach you. And mentor and do it over and over and over again, um, that might not even be something you want to consider.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, it's a good point. We were just chatting about that on a, on a group coaching call where, um, you know, people talk about hiring and, and did I get the hiring right? Did I get the hiring right? How do I hire it? And it's fascinating because a lot of times the. The hiring process could have been fine. And that's obviously a big, big part of it.

Um, but there's, in my opinion, there's, there's a few, there's probably more, but there's three key ones is obviously, yeah, the hiring process is step one. Step two is gonna be the onboarding. Uh, process and a lot of, a lot of owner chiropractors fail on that, which is a problem, but then the [00:06:00] third one, which is what you're kind of talking about is, are you willing to like coach and mentor them and build them into a chiropractor, uh, especially if they're coming out of school or young or something completely different type of practice style.

Are you willing to make that commitment to them? Because if, if all three of those boxes aren't checked, there's a high chance it's not going to work out.

Lisa Goodman, DC: Yeah, I mean, totally correct, which is why I'm sure we'll get into timelines and expectations.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, let's do that. What would you like, uh, as far as, you know, you know, you, okay, you've made that determination where I'm, I'm ready to hire.

And it could be another chiropractor that might be looking to hire, um, is someone that's looking to step back a little bit, Uh, you're going to go from full time to part time or something like that, but you can still obviously mentor that person and onboard them. Um, so we've made the decision. We're bringing on the associate.

We don't have a strong lead right now. What are we looking for as, as far as getting that, uh, [00:07:00] associate and the timeline around that?

Lisa Goodman, DC: Like as far as getting them onboarded.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Well, let's say like, how long can a chiropractor expect to actually find a chiropractor, um, you know, and, and, and go through the hiring process and actually hire them.

Lisa Goodman, DC: All right. So digging into the hiring process a little bit, um, I think that anyone who's willing to hire a brand new graduate, it is, it is awesome, right? We have to do that. We have to support our new grads, but it's a different deal than hiring somebody who already has some experience somewhere else.

When you hire somebody who's been working at like the joint or something for a year, they bring with them a ton of experience and they also bring with them something that I think is kind of special, which is what it feels like. To work for someone who maybe isn't as great as you are. And when somebody is working for you and you're awesome and amazing and treating them well and mentoring and coaching them, they have the [00:08:00] experience to say, to, to recognize that, say, this is great.

Sometimes when you hire somebody who's brand new, who has never had a job as a chiropractic associate before, they come into your practice and you're awesome. You're great. And you're spoiling them with training and mentoring, but they still have that curiosity of what else is out there. That's something I've kind of seen and important to address.

If you hire a new graduate, that those feelings are normal and natural, but there's no one better than you. So don't even think about it. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding a little bit, but I. Feel like that happens sometimes. So, um, how long can it take you expect to look for and hire an associate? Um, it really depends on your area.

I have heard recently that it's pretty hard to get good qualified candidates for what you're looking for. A lot of our practices are so Um, and then we're looking for somebody who practices specialty practices or we have specialty credentials, or we're looking for somebody who practices like us, potentially from the school we went to.

[00:09:00] And so that your pool gets smaller and smaller, kind of the more specific you get. So it kind of depends if you're able to open, um, broaden maybe what you're looking for, and then be able to make that person coachable or pay for a certification that you want them to get. But I'm not really answering your question.

I think it could take three months. It could take six months. To find somebody.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, it really could, you know, and I think one of the things that I've tried to do, you know, get a little bit of a built in advantage of a chiropractic audience. So, um, people may know where my practices and things of that nature.

So that does help my talent acquisition. But I do know, I do know a lot of other chiropractors that don't have podcasts and such and. They've got good talent acquisition because they've gotten involved with particular techniques, right? Be it, um, MPI or ART or, uh, the like, there's other ones as well, where they're getting involved and they're kind of building a brand of their practice, like you have, like you've built a brand of your practice that transcends just the community.

And so now, you know, people are going to know [00:10:00] you've written, you wrote a book, you've got an expertise on this, you built a great practice. And so that's one way of, um, really transcending the community. Building a brand in the profession, and that could make it a little bit easier to attract good talent that's compatible with your practice.

Lisa Goodman, DC: Correct. I mean, be involved, not starting from when you're in school, but be involved in the chiropractic profession. Go to Parker seminars, go to seminars, participate, not just in your local business building groups, but in chiropractic groups, because That people know each other, people know other people who are hiring and people ask me, email me all the time.

Who else is hiring in Denver? Who do you know? Who do you know? So we can help each other find good help. And I will say though, I think the best way to find exactly what you're looking for is actually to recruit, to ask around and to find out, you know, don't recruit from another small business chiropractor, but recruit from, you know, somewhere where you feel okay, um, offering them a better deal.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Or, you know, [00:11:00] it could be, it's not always about money either. Right. It could be, uh, you're looking for someone that's going to have a profit share model or someone that potentially partnered, or you're wanting to retire in five years and you, and you want to be able to sell the practice to them. Right.

There's a lot of different things that might be a long term benefit to that associate. Um, that is, uh, not necessarily just monetary. Obviously we gotta, we gotta pay people and you gotta pay them well. And I think that's a whole other topic maybe we'll, we'll touch on in a second, but I do want to transition to, um, you know, you're bringing that person on.

Like, what are some of the keys to a mutually beneficial experience? Cause I think that's a big problem in the profession right now. A lot of owners feel kind of duped by associates and not living up to expectations. And it's like, you know, This and that about this generation and that. And, and then the, the, obviously the potential associates or the associates are feeling like they're getting a raw deal, like what are some of the keys to a mutually beneficial experience?

Lisa Goodman, DC: [00:12:00] The key is feeling valued. That's kind of my number one thing is that somehow making sure that associates feel valued. The owner should make sure that that also the reciprocal owners need to feel valued as well. One thing we see a lot of is that associates feel taken advantage of. They sort of go in and they say, um, Well, I'm just, I'm just here to make money for the practice.

Um, they just want me to do all this work and they're reaping all the rewards and owners kind of say the same thing. Well, I'm here doing all this. I'm providing all of this training and support and mentorship and paying them so well. And I'm paying for continuing ed and I'm paying for their malpractice and their health insurance.

And they're just, they're not, Pulling their weight. So a lot of it is, is how can we make each other feel valued? And I think a lot of that comes from trust and from establishing an agreement from the beginning. You know, when I hire a new associate, let me put it this way. A lot of people [00:13:00] hire associates in a fear based model, kind of a, if you leave and open up, I will, I'll sue you.

If you take patience with you, I'll, I'll sue you. And, um, and that has happened to me in the past. I wrote about it in the book a little bit. And. And now I've, I've changed my whole, um, Mindset to much more of a handshake, like Kevin, I'm going to hire you to work in my practice. And I want to talk to you about what that means and what I expect for you and what I expect for me to provide.

And if either of us ever aren't pulling our weight, we need to talk about it. And we need to see what can be done. And at the end of the day, If you leave and if, if, if, which actually sometimes I, that's what I hope for people, I hope that they want to open their own practice and that I've provided mentorship and guidance and all of that.

I, in fact, I expect them to go, but there's some caveats. And if, and when that happens, I want to be happy for you. I want to be proud of you. I want to tell everybody where you went. And I think those types of relationships can exist. And it's just a matter of setting it up. [00:14:00] Correctly with agreements in the beginning.

And I, I actually won't take legal action against you if you leave. But my, um, recommendation is kind of the reverse, which is more of a, um, retention incentive. If you meet all of the terms of your contract at the end of your contract, you'll receive some sort of retention bonus or incentive versus a threat of suing you, or you have to pay me 20, 000 or something like that.

So anyway, long winded answer. But to say that I think that it's really important that trust is developed from the beginning, and there are a lot of steps along the way to notice it's not happening.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, I agree. And I think one of the things is clarity. Um, I'm actually in the early phases of onboarding a new associate and, uh, so far so good.

And one of the things that, um, I sent him is the, um, the book, the great game of business. And we're going to kind of work through that. Um, I've read through that. I've, I've, um, We've had someone in our mastermind who's implemented that, uh, next [00:15:00] year in 2025, I'm actually paying for the great game of business facilitator to come because it, it is a, it's kind of like an open book management system they talk about.

And there are certain ways where you can definitely provide clarity of the practice finances and other things without sharing maybe information you don't want to, but, you know, educating them and realizing like, you know, As the owner, I'm not burying extra money in the backyard because I don't know what to do and spend with it.

Right? Like it's, I think there's this misconception. Maybe they see the money coming in. They see office visits. They know that the office visit average is 83 and 50 cents. And we just saw 225 people and they go, man, the money's just coming out of his ears. Right? So, um, I'm trying to also educate, educate on the realities of.

Okay. Practice ownership, educate on the realities of patient management, like all the things that go into it and, and looking at it as a, as a process for sure. And I, I'm hoping that is [00:16:00] one of the keys to a mutually beneficial experience.

Lisa Goodman, DC: Yeah. I agree. I think that being very clear about the job description and expectations and that is an interesting thing you bring up.

I've talked to a lot of owners who say, I, I, I'm only paying myself 40, 000 a year. So when my, this new associate wants to make 90, I open up the books and I show them where all the money's going and I show them every single thing and I'm like, well, I actually not sure that's a good, a really good idea because a lot of people don't have a mind to do that.

For all of that, or the business, and they make a lot of assumptions. They only kind of look at the numbers they want to see, but they don't look at how it all works together. Anyway, point being though, that if an owner is really successful and runs a great business and is fortunate enough to make a really good income and still pay their associates.

Well, I actually don't think it necessarily needs to be. Information of everybody, like an owner is allowed to make a good living. You've put a lot of risk. You've put a lot of your own money in. And we, I think as [00:17:00] owners, sometimes we get like embarrassed or fearful, or like we think that we have to justify what, what kind of income you might make.

And for the record, for people. Associates listening and students, you might have a great month and then you might have four months or five months where you don't pay yourself at all. And that's obviously not the goal, but that's how it works sometimes with different types of payment. And so it can, it can look like you said, you see 500 patients in a week and your associates are all going, man, you must be making so much.

And you're sitting there saying I should be, but it's not happening right now. And then next month, maybe it all pays off. So, um, there's, I love that idea. I'm going to check out that book too, because I think just. being sent sort of feeling like, well, actually that leads into my next thing. You really want your associates to feel involved and to have some sort of ownership and leadership within your practice.

Even if there's just two of you, if they have some, Some part of the job that they're responsible for, which is oftentimes where like a profit share can make sense, um, or some sort of, um, bonus on whatever [00:18:00] work you're having them do, but it's their own thing. They feel like they're in charge of it or they are in charge of it.

Um, it's really, really helpful to have them want to be a part of what you're doing versus just tasking them, telling them what to do, giving them number goals. It's more, you know, how can they be involved in building and growing in your community too?

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, no, it makes it makes a lot of sense. And being being a part of that team.

And ultimately, that's why it's important when you have a team, you got to keep the culture up as well, right? I think that's a one of the keys to to mutually beneficial experiences that do they feel like they're part of the team? And is the overall team culture really good? So that when they come on board?

They're not coming into a virus, right? Like I've seen that happen before where the new associate starts and there's inner conflict with the other team members. And that's part of the issue. And then they, um, they feel like this is not a good place to be. This is not going to benefit my professional growth.

Um, and I see that often as [00:19:00] well.

Lisa Goodman, DC: Yeah. Culture's huge. I mean, practice what you preach, lead with values, hire people who have similar values of you. If I were going to talk more about the hiring process, um, are you a really heavy philosophy based chiropractor? Are you really heavy problem focused chiropractor?

Are you somewhere in the middle? Make sure that you're looking at associates who have a similar value system chiropractic is you, but also a value system in terms of, um, You know, not over treating or not overcharging or, you know, it's, it's interesting, like, the integrity that you can run into. And if you can assess all of that out during the interview process and really find a good human to work with, then all of your agreements hold a lot more weight.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, it makes sense. And, you know, and one of the things, uh, I had dinner in Vegas for Parker and it was me and Jay Greenstein and a few other people. And, um, the, the gentleman from chiro matchmakers were there and, and, you know, they talked to a lot of chiropractors that are looking to hire. And one of the things they talk about is like, you know, kind of like, what's the [00:20:00] revenue of the clinic?

What's the, uh, what's your income. And if there's certain parameters that are not being met there, um, they will recommend not hiring an associate because What's happening, I think that you could get almost all the things right, and it could be mutually mutually beneficial, but if you're if you're cash flow crunched.

And you think the associate coming in is going to be the savior of that. And right out of the gates, they're not because most likely, you know, it's going to be an investment on your end. But if you're like, you're, you're counting the days until that person is bringing in profits that cover themselves.

And it takes a little bit longer, then you start to get resentful and there's a lot of stuff going on there as well. So you got to get the financial house in order as well so that you can enter into that relationship with that associate and not be, you know, you know, money always spoils everything.

Right. And it can spoil it in a lot of different ways, but I think that's something I see a lot as well. Yeah.

Lisa Goodman, DC: I, I do too. [00:21:00] Um, I think that abundance begets abundance. And if you can already come at hiring an associate with the mindset of paying them a base, they're worth being paid something when they come into your practice, they're not always being worth being paid what they want.

We don't have a residency program, at least not widespread in chiropractic. So when somebody is coming out of school or giving their first three years to a practice, they should really look at What can I get? What can I build in myself from this practice? Money is secondary. All of us that are hiring are going to have some kind of tiered system, whether it's a percentage, whether it's off of a number, you see this many patients, you earn this much.

There's always growth available. I always tell associates, as long as you still have room on your schedule, you have room to earn more money for yourself. So if you set it up, right, like, Oh yeah, I'll pay you a base. Of course. But they always have room to, um, to create more financial abundance for themselves.

So coming in and [00:22:00] demanding, you know, like you said, 90, 000 out of school that's available to you, but you have to put in the work to get there. So I usually advise students and associates looking to also interview the owner, find out if the owner's a good fit for you, find out if this practice is a good fit for you.

Because It's not about the money. Those first three years, it shouldn't be at all. It should be about, am I in a place where I will learn and flourish and grow and be part of something that matters to me because the money will come if you choose right.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, it's such a good point. You know, it really is.

And I think, um, you know, there's probably a middle ground on the, on the, on the income side. I think the associate, uh, definitely, I mean, life has gotten expensive, right? Life is definitely gotten expensive. They need to live. Um, but I do think there needs to be more. A learning period and understand that there's also a lot of investment going on to the associate or there should be, um, that is not necessarily built into the [00:23:00] salary.

And then there should be a path within that 3 years of doing really well. And I think, um. Using it as a, I use a reference of if you're a new graduating DC, not someone that's, you know, eight years out and you're getting an associate position because you're moving to Denver, but the new chiropractor, um, has to look at those first few years as kind of like a residency, right?

And to your point, a residency, isn't a money making venture. It's more about learning your craft. And so I really believe. But that new so she has to really look at it as working on their craft. And I'm just gonna say one more thing about that. Um, and let you get your thought on it. But part of that craft is not just a clinical.

That's obviously table stakes and we gotta get good clinically. But if at any point you want to own and operate your own practice, you better learn how to build a practice. And so getting out in the community and doing the things that build their own patient [00:24:00] base, kind of an intrapreneur right within that practice.

You want to do that instead of say, Oh, I don't want to build that guy's practice. He, you know, he's going to make another, you know, he's going to go buy another car with it, whatever, like too many people have that mindset. But if you look at it as like, this is my opportunity to learn how to do this.

Because if you go out in three years later or five years later and open up your own practice in a new town, and it's the first time you've had to do it. You don't want that to be the case. Some people can get away with it, but you want to have some, you know, sea legs under you before you started to try to build a business.

Lisa Goodman, DC: Well, it's one of the biggest fears of owners, and it's one of the things that happens all the time when an associate's working for you, they don't, they don't do the, I'm not talking about me, by the way, if my associates are listening,

Dr. Kevin Christie: same here,

Lisa Goodman, DC: associates don't do the work for you. That you want them to do all the things you just mentioned, but they do go open their own practice three years later.

And all of a sudden they're hustling on social media. They're hustling in the community. They're showing up in all the [00:25:00] places that you said, can you guys go and do this? It'll be great for you. And it, it is like something I really want to get rid of because You want to have an associate who's all in for you in the time that they're there.

This is a learning curve, but this is a community, right? With a family, like right from the start there, this relationship is not that different from a marriage, but you're deciding in a half an hour interview, if you want to marry this person for at least, you know, that amount of time, I do want to ask you, I keep, we keep both throwing out this number of three years.

How do you feel about what is like the perfect length for an associate to commit to? To feel like you've invested in them and you're getting something back. You know, I, I have a, I feel like this is a real, um, a real point for me as an owner of, of that. And I'm just curious what your opinion is on the numbers.

Yeah, I actually,

Dr. Kevin Christie: I'll, I gotta, I feel like I got a good answer about it. Cause I've, I've experienced, um, both ends of the extreme in my last two associates, uh, one, uh, Canadian. And we knew that we had a [00:26:00] four year work visa and it was like, uh, You know, 75 percent chance you're going to go back and he did.

And it was a phenomenal four years. And I felt like, uh, the investment had a return, the practice did good. I was able to go to part time, uh, care. Like it, it just was a very good experience and ultimately, um, was excited to see him grow and move up to Canada. And he's. And then, uh, my last associate, uh, invested a lot in and, and, and left, um, moved to family, different city, you know, whatever, uh, as far as, um, that decision making to, to do that, that was just a personal family decision that worked out for them.

Uh, but, uh, he was only with me for like. I think a year and a half and I had done a lot of investing to, to make, uh, make that, uh, a longer lasting thing and it didn't. And so I definitely, um, didn't have an ROI. Um, and so I think a year, year and a half is definitely way too little and [00:27:00] 4 was really nice. Uh, obviously the longer, the better I've had 6, I had 1 that was 6 years.

That was great. I think three's really the minimum, and I think four is like the ideal minimum, if that makes sense.

Lisa Goodman, DC: Yeah. I think three is the minimum. I think five is really wonderful. Um, I, I think lifelong associate is the goal because also, um, I've, I've presented on this topic a lot and I, and it actually, even in the book, which is about opening your own practice, there's an entire chapter that you read to see if you have what it takes to be an owner.

Do you, Yeah. Maybe some people want to own, but should you own? And so if somebody can read that and say, you know what, I don't want to do all that. I just want to be part of the community and treat patients, but I don't want to deal with the business burden. That's, that's the one you want to identify for the longterm associate.

And that's the one you'll invest so much more in because they're so [00:28:00] happy in that role. You know, when you have someone who's sort of waiting. For the right time to leave and open their own practice. You just have to make sure you have good agreements with them. And, and you keep that number up, which is why I mentioned at the beginning, this idea of a retention bonus.

If you had your one and a half year doc, let's say you had them on a three year contract for the retention bonus, they left it. So what I do with that is I, um, have like a separate account for that profit. First by Mike Michaelowitz is a great, but I have a separate account. Okay. For a lot of things. And I have an account that's like, okay, this is for so and so's retention bonus.

And every month it just auto debits into that. So I don't even see it. It's basically like payroll now at a year and a half, they leave, they move to another city. You're happy for them. What whatnot, but they don't get the retention bonus, but you get it if you want it, because you've been putting it away.

Right. And now you can use that to invest in your next to see it. Um, but if they do stay the three years or whatever that number is, you happily write them. A check for the retention bonus. You've been saving it. It's not your money. Anyway, [00:29:00] they, they, they can either use that if you, if you're supportive of them opening their own practice, whatever your stipulations are five miles away, whatnot, don't solicit patients with an email.

Um, I'll pay that bonus to you in 90 days after you're done here, you kind of have some time to see what their plans are. Um, or you don't have to leave. You can pay them the retention bonus and you can stay on for another three years. Right? So those are kind of the ways that I've seen it be successful to know, because planning's everything in our world.

You, you mentioned yourself, you were able to go to part time I'm writing, I'm presenting, I'm doing a lot for the profession that I think is really valuable, but it does mean stepping away clinically a little bit. And if I can plan for that. And so now it's, I know when my three years is coming up with an associate.

Or four years or five, whatever they agreed to, you can start having those conversations with them and eight and potentially have them be involved with finding their replacement and training their replacement and creating that culture. We talked about, which is like, yeah, this has been a fantastic place to work.

Dr. Goodman's great to work with. [00:30:00] You guys are going to love it here. And they understand that they're handing off their patients in good hands and what they ultimately need, what associates ultimately do need to understand Is that when they leave an associateship, they're not leaving empty handed. They shouldn't be leaving with a book of patience.

They should be leaving with experience and a mentor for life and a know how of how to network and how to build and how to financially manage their practice. But a lot of times the fear of us owners is that our associates are coming in to build a mini book. Practice and that they're just going to take everybody they've built those relationships with, with them, which happens because people are people and people build relationships and you can't hold onto them.

You can't really tug a war with a human being, but you can do the best you can to make sure that everybody understands that the patient, the practice will take care of the patient later. And the associate leaves with all that abundance of knowledge and experience.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, you know, and it's a, it's a apropos point because I guess the [00:31:00] new law is coming out.

It's not official yet, but there's no non competes. Uh, it looks like that's gonna, gonna happen. And, um, you know, I got thoughts on that. Uh, I've, I've always, uh, two times in my career, I abided by a non compete cause I was an associate. And I made sure to abide by that. Then I was in a partnership that I, uh, sold out of and opened up a practice and I made sure I abided by that.

Uh, I haven't had any associates, um, underneath me not abide by a reasonable uh, mileage and non compete, but it looks like that might go the way of the dinosaur. Uh, you can still do the, um, you know, obviously the non solicits and things of that nature. Uh, but. The way social media is now, a lot of people are going to follow them.

And I just, if that's, you know, if that's the case, if we can't do the non competes, then, um, I'm not going to let it impact me hiring. It's not ideal. It's going to probably, um, be something that could bite some people in the, you know what, sometimes, because, uh, unfortunately it [00:32:00] is a real drain on a small practice, if.

Someone that's seeing 30, 40 percent of the patients leaves and a lot of them go with them. That's a, that's tough to, tough to handle for sure.

Lisa Goodman, DC: It is tough to handle. I, I want my associates to close their ears real quick. I believe that it, you should expect it. I think that part of it is kind of going into hiring an associate is a, is a benefit for like three years, whatnot.

You got to do all kinds of different things. You wanted flexibility, but then you, sometimes you got to. Jump back in and build back up. And I think from the perspective of is this person leaving truly my competition or are they truly good for chiropractic? The more good chiropractors that we have, the better.

I think that's really important. We, I want to change the conversation from why are you going to a chiropractor? You don't have anything wrong with you. You know, that's what people say. I want to change it to, Oh, cool. Who's your [00:33:00] chiropractor? I need, I'm looking for one. There's so many spines and ankles and hips out there that need our help.

But I try, I just don't look at it like competition anymore. I look at it like. You know, the people who are going to your practice may not be the people coming to my practice and it's, it's a big deal. Even a massage therapist recently left my practice and a ton of patients went with them when they started their home based business.

And I was, you know, you're hurt, you're rejected, you're disappointed. You've put it, you're hurt from the person and the patients as well. But. So that's, that's kind of the emotional side of hiring and having these people that you trust and that you put so much into. And I really feel like everybody who's ever worked for me just feels like family, friends, somebody I want to be in a relationship with forever.

Um, And sometimes that doesn't happen and it all has to do with communication. How is it communicated? You know?

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, no, it definitely does. And I think that's, what's going to be important, right. Is [00:34:00] that, um, you mentioned the word competition and, and I want to, Touch on this last little topic of it's something I wasn't expecting to but I think it's a really important thing I think what happens is a lot of chiropractors obviously look at the other chiropractors in their community as competition And that's kind of a natural thing, especially if you're competitive or whatever But I also see too often that the owner and the associate actually look at each other as competition even within under the same roof What are some of your experiences and thoughts on that?

Lisa Goodman, DC: You know, it's funny. The reason I hadn't even thought to bring that up is because it hasn't happened in my office in like four years, but I have been in that situation. And even worse is when you have three doctors, because usually the two associates are clamoring for the new patient, the new patient that calls from random or from a Google ad, who does it go to?

And is it fair? And I will tell you what, the second that conversation starts. [00:35:00] Something has to change because I fully believe that the more successful Dr. A is, the more successful Dr. B is. And if they can cross refer and ask each other for help and advice, they're both going to be more successful. I actually had a doctor who worked for me who was going on a two week long vacation and said to the front desk, don't put any of my patients with anybody else while I'm gone.

They need to wait and see me when I get back. Yep. And are you kidding me? Like, are we putting the patient first or are we putting you first? Because the patients are always going to be grateful that you took care of them while you were gone or that they, we have a philosophy in our practice. You can see any doctor at any time.

We try to get our patients to see all of us so that they're comfortable seeing all of us. And mind you, we are commissioned based. Everybody is. It's based on, you know, how many people they see, but they still believe I have two great eggs right now who still understand that they want to see each other be successful.

And that's what I'm talking about. When I say higher for [00:36:00] values, like, I want to hire hungry doctors who are competitive and who want a busy schedule. But there's so many patients out there. You don't have to rely on the random one that calls in and hope it gets put on your schedule. If you're doing the right communicating in your treatment room and the right marketing and networking in your own circles, you know what I mean?

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, such a good point. You know, I, I ran into it in the past, uh, say probably my first associate. I had a, I had designed a compensation structure that was, was fair, but I had, I had hired him like a year and a half into opening up my own practice. So I was like still trying to build my practice and he was trying to build his and there was a little bit there.

Uh, and then, uh, a second time was like what you said was I, I probably prematurely brought on a, a third. Chiropractor, so a second associate, third chiropractor and the number two chiropractor was like a pretty bothered by that. And that ultimately it worked out and they became cool and friends with each other and all that.

But it was a rough 6 months to try to [00:37:00] kind of smooth that out because that was honestly, it was poor communication on my part. And that was, you know, you live and you learn. And I think my last point on it is that. You got to look at your compensation structures as well. When you're doing this, whether you're hiring one or you bring it on another associate and things that where it's not going to breed that, like you said, that particular associate didn't want his patients seeing other ones was probably because there was some kind of compensation structure that negatively impacted him.

If someone else saw his patients and was afraid they were going to not come back to him.

Lisa Goodman, DC: Correct. Yeah. And you could. Build something in where everybody benefits from a certain profit share of the entire practice of success on top of what they're earning on their individual, right? So you could do something like that.

Um, I haven't really needed to do that because everybody. Everybody just loves their own kind of their focus and their patients. And I think once we get to where we are getting strong referrals in, um, then you just kind of don't [00:38:00] have to worry about it, but it is like we've said at the beginning, grow when you, as us, as the doctor are busy enough that you can sustain sharing those new leads with your associate, um, I don't, I think, I think so to your point too, about doctors outside of your office and competition.

Um, you, you also mentioned when you're in other towns, like visit other chiropractors. So you should know everybody in your area as chiropractors, you know, everybody who's practicing, you should know what techniques they do, what hours they have, what techniques they don't do. If you're a solo practitioner and you've got your table in your hands and you're just starting out.

That's a great person to network with. If you have a decompression table, like, Hey, send any of your disc patients over here, we'll treat them for that. Don't worry. We're not going to steal them from you. And if we have, Oh, you work Saturdays. Great. We don't. So now we can send people to you because you're working Saturdays.

So I think that that is what's better. Best for our profession. And it's hard to let go, but it's just incredible. The support you'll get from your patients. They'll be like, [00:39:00] so grateful that you were able to refer them to somebody else. And don't you also think that referring within our profession is so much stronger than referring out of our profession.

If you have a patient that might need a chiropractic neurologist or might need an Atlas orthogonal doc or something that you don't do instead of just sending them to a neurologist.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, I agree. And, you know, I think we need, we need more of that for sure. So, well, doc, this has been amazing and we could keep on going on, but, uh, tell us the name of, of your book.

It's exciting. And you launched it in Parker. That was cool to see. I think you guys did a great job of, uh, getting it out there. And so tell us about the book, the name of it and where they can find it.

Lisa Goodman, DC: Thank you. Yeah. Published by Parker university. It's called the manual for the chiropractic entrepreneur.

It's a 16, maybe 17 chapters of a tactical guide of how, what you need to know everything from what taxes you need to pay, what you need to register for as a practitioner, but also as a business [00:40:00] all the way. Through the, the sort of fun of risk management as chiropractors, we need to take that really seriously from our patients and ourselves.

Um, but then there's the fun stuff branding. I don't know about you, but I don't think enough chiropractors spend enough time. Thinking about the name of their practice and their, their, they, they pick some sort of clip art and name it, you know, something that sort of their first stab, either, you know, a name that their name or something like that, but you can really be creative.

You can really make an impact with the name of your practice, the colors, fonts, logos. I have a lot of fun with that in the book. Um, so it's a lot, it's a lot of pep talk. It's a lot of tactical and it's a lot of creativity. And I believe that everybody has what it takes to open a practice if they want to.

My goal with the book is to inspire you to have the confidence to do it. It's confidence that a lot of times is lacking and the confidence is lacking because you don't know how to do it. We've never done it before. So this is a really inexpensive way. You know, it's 25 on Amazon. Read it while you're in school.[00:41:00]

Read it right now. If you're not sure, if you want to open a practice, read it. If you're three years in and you're like trying to think about things you haven't done yet or need to start doing it's on Amazon, it's called the manual for the chiropractic entrepreneur. Check it out. Let me know if you like it.

Let me know if you have any other questions. Super excited about it.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Perfect. That's it. It's cool. You know, it's, um, it's a labor of love writing a book, isn't it? Uh, but it's fun.

Lisa Goodman, DC: It is a labor of love. I knew a week into opening my practice that I had no idea what I was doing. And I said, once I figure this out, I'm going to write it down so everyone else can figure it out a lot faster than I did.

That was a true story. 18 years ago, I said, once I have enough credibility and experience under my belt, I'm putting this all on paper and it's happened now. So check it out.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Funny, uh, naming practices. I had a patient say something pretty funny the other day and I had, I'd never heard of it. Um, the name of my practices is health fit chiropractic and sports recovery.

And, um, he goes, man, you really pigeonholed [00:42:00] yourself into staying healthy and fit the rest of your life. Didn't you? I was like, I was like, I never thought about that, but yeah, I did. I really did. Cause I was probably 29 when I named it, but yeah, trying to, you know, Stay healthy, healthy and fit, uh, at 44. But yeah, you got to think about those things, not, not necessarily staying healthy and fit and naming your practice, but naming and branding is important.

For sure.

Lisa Goodman, DC: I think it's a pretty good risk that you're going to stay healthy and fit. And you're going to promote that for your patients for the rest of your life. So I think it's pretty good bet.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Absolutely. Well, doc, this was, this was really cool and exciting. Uh, hopefully we can run into each other in Denver here when I'm coming up there to visit and, um, let's make sure we keep in touch.

Lisa Goodman, DC: Yeah. Come visit me. Oh, last thing I want to mention is, um, chapter one is available for free at drlisagoodman. com. It's drlisagoodman. com. If you want to check it out right now and not wait for your book to come in the mail.

Dr. Kevin Christie: Perfect. And we'll put that in the show notes.

Lisa Goodman, DC: Okay. Thank you.[00:43:00]