EPISODE 367: Everything Neurodynamics with Michael Shacklock, DipPhysio
Hey, chiropractors. We're ready for another Modern Chiropractic Marketing Show with Dr. Kevin Christie, where we discuss the latest in marketing strategies, contact marketing, direct response marketing, and business development with some of the leading experts in the industry.
Dr. Kevin Christie: [00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of modern chiropractic mastery. This is your host. Dr. Kevin Christie. And today I'm excited to bring on Michael Shacklock, uh, from NeuroDynamics. He is a physical therapist out of Australia and kind of well known in our circles of, of chiropractic. And we really dive into NeuroDynamics, not necessarily the science and clinical and getting into case presentations and things of that nature, but, uh, what it looks like, what NeuroDynamics is, what it, what it does for your, for your clinical assessments, uh, what it does for your patients.
There's a few things I learned from this episode, which was great. And one of them is like the amazing work you can do, um, in the community with nerve related issues, that it's just such a, a hole in the healthcare system. And so we dive into things like that. We dive into how to get certified in it, how to be clinically efficient in it.
Uh, why you should consider [00:01:00] this into your practice and really what it does for the patient. And it's such a, um, population that's underserved in a certain respect. You know, it's like they get these nerve pain issues, which is really not fun as we know. And a lot of times there's not a solution for them.
Surgeries don't work often. Uh, pain medication or nerve medication has a lot of side effects. By product, uh, that we don't like, and it obviously doesn't always help. There's just, it's a population that can really use this. And we dive into that. Um, I had the pleasure of having dinner with Michael in Vegas, uh, for Parker a couple of months ago.
And we really started to, uh, kind of get to know each other there. And I was like, you know what, this is a podcast we need to have. It's something I wanted to have with him prior to that, uh, but just getting to, to know him and his wealth of knowledge and his ability to take something complicated and break it down has been great.
I really enjoyed this conversation and I know you will as well. Uh, without further ado, here is [00:02:00] my interview with Michael Shacklock.
All right. Welcome to the show, Michael. I really appreciate your time and efforts on this. I'm excited to have you, uh, on our podcast to dive into, uh, all things neurodynamics. But before we do that, tell us about yourself personally, professionally, and then we'll go from there.
Michael Shacklock: Well, thank you, Kevin. Thanks for the opportunity.
Um, well, first I'm Michael Shacklock. I'm a physical therapist by, by profession and training. Um, I was, uh, I graduated in New Zealand, actually. Um, same country as Stan Paris and people like that. Um, and I got really interested in manual physical therapy, using hands and things like that. And, uh, when I graduated, worked in hospitals and private practices for a while, then went to Australia.
To learn a more specialized manual therapy approach, which is commonly called a maintenance approach. And from then on, I got interested in nerves, met David Butler, who many of you know, and we ended up working, actually working in a clinic together and developing material together. [00:03:00] And he wrote his fantastic book, Mobilization of the Nervous System, which became a sort of an icon, really a big step forward.
And then I, I sort of felt that we need to move further forward as well by making this a diagnosis and treatment system. It's often called nerve flossing, but my feeling is that we need a broader application with at the same time specific. So physical therapy is my background, manual therapy is my background as well.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, because you know, obviously a lot with physical therapy, you probably have a lot that are more just exercise and modality based, maybe not as hands on and, um, and then you're going to get a lot that are hands on and, you know, like the chiropractic profession, you'll get, you know, A similar type of, uh, scenario with that, for sure.
Um, so for our audience, you know, they're, they're mostly chiropractors. We do have some, some non chiropractors listening, but the, the vast majority of our listenership, uh, is chiropractors. We, uh, we do have an international audience, but, um, just explain what, uh, neurodynamics is. Uh, if [00:04:00] you were to talk to someone for the first time, they didn't really know what it was, uh, how would you explain that to the chiropractor?
Michael Shacklock: That's a really good question. That's the one I probably find the most difficult to answer. Um, it's basically a, um, a way of moving nerves, uh, in relation to key diagnoses like lumbar radiculopathy, sciatica, cervical radiculopathy, uh, cervical brachialgia. Um, it's a way of. um, figuring out if someone has a movement problem related to their nerve pain.
So if someone looks up and gets radiating pain down their arm that could be a cervical radicular problem but and some people would go do nerve flossing or nerve movements for that but for me there's a big step forward which is how to connect how we move with the nerve pain. So it's partly a movement system, manual therapy system and a nerve mobilization system but it's not just a nerve mobilization system.
It's not enough. That's how I would characterize it.
Dr. Kevin Christie: I like that. That clears up. So basically, you know, obviously you're going to [00:05:00] utilize this for testing. You're going to utilize it for therapy for the patient, but then you also can give them some tools in their everyday life to move properly to potentially avoid some of the nerve pain.
Michael Shacklock: Absolutely. And for instance, if someone has severe pain, they want to get some, uh, some relief. So we would give the person some positions to do at home to take pressure off their nerve root. Um, while some other people who are functioning at a higher level might need an improvement in the nerve's tolerance to movement.
So we would show them how to move into that nerve's tolerance and, and try and increase that capacity. So there's a balance at different ends of the spectrum.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. That's, that's fascinating for sure. Because I think one of the things that as, um, a doctor or therapist, the, the best, Treatment you can give some people sometimes there are some really good things to do at home, whether it is therapeutic in nature or just, uh, you know, avoid this or, uh, [00:06:00] move like that, you know, and I think sometimes we short sight that in our clinical recommendations, uh, for, for patients.
So that's fascinating to, to be able to give someone relief from nerve pain. Cause I mean, obviously all pain sucks, but I feel like nerve pain is one of those ones where it's like. It really sucks. And to be able to give someone relief is helpful.
Michael Shacklock: It sure, it sure does suck. And even medication, um, there aren't many medications that give dramatic relief to nerve pain.
And that's one of the things that characterizes it. So for me, mechanical parts are important in certain people. We learn how to include or exclude them and take them through a system of progressions from pain relief through to activity. So that's the main approach.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, and obviously with the nerve Medication and stuff.
There's just so many side effects to like the person just doesn't feel like they can function well, uh, on those medications. So it's just got such a negative impact, um, outside of just, it doesn't really work great either. Right. [00:07:00] That's true. Um, so you've made your way to the United States quite a bit over the, over the years.
What was your original foray, foray into the, uh, into the United States with this and, and, and also the chiropractic profession, I'd love to hear the backstory of that.
Michael Shacklock: Right. Well, the first time I, I taught in the United States was. 1994, um, with Noygroup, many people know of Noygroup, the group that Dave Butler started and Lauren Ramosi and so forth, uh, work with, um, and we were teaching mobilization of the nervous system then as a manual therapy system for treating nerve problems.
The first course I taught was in Buffalo, New York. And it's funny because there's a different culture over here where, for instance, if you have a meal at a restaurant. In the U. S. you tip, obviously, typically tip, pardon the joke. Um, uh, and as Australia, we're not used to that. And I remember thinking, coming over, because it's all included in the whole thing.
And I remember coming [00:08:00] over and saying, how much do I tip? When do I tip? Oh my goodness, I hope I don't offend anyone. And so finally, I learned tipping is one of the, one of the small things in the U. S. But since then. It's been fantastic. You know, we've gone to many, uh, many parts of the United States. We still do, of course.
And so for me, Buffalo, New York was my first, my first part, but since then, we've gone to virtually every state in the U. S. It's really broadened out.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Who was the gentleman in Buffalo that brought you there? I remember the A Dr. Michael Gerasi. Yes, I'm familiar with that person. Yep. Absolutely. Cool. Good.
Buffalo. Not necessarily the no offense to Buffalonians. Um, the best representation of American weather.
Michael Shacklock: Oh, you know where I got there, they said, we're going to stir crazy. We've had nothing above 20 degrees or something. The three weeks, the snow everywhere and I would go crazy.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, exactly. Um, all right, great.
And then the other thing I wanted to touch on based in the United States was, uh, not that long ago, you guys had a [00:09:00] pretty cool event in Dallas at, I believe it was at Parker. Uh, tell us a little bit about that. That was fascinating.
Michael Shacklock: Yeah, Dr. Morgan, the boss of course, was kind enough to allow us to collaborate with Gestalt Education and Parker and we had a world congress on neurodynamics.
That included people like Jeff Boe, with the pain sciences and neurophysiology. There was Dave Seaman, who many of you will know. Brett Winchester and myself and a bunch of other people speaking. That's fantastic. So it was, it brought a bunch of different approaches together in relation to the nervous system.
Great idea. Great idea. That was Gestalt, uh, Brett Taylor Gestalt who did that.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, it was great. I know, uh, Michael Leahy was there with, with, yeah, I'm sorry. I
Michael Shacklock: didn't
Dr. Kevin Christie: mean to
Michael Shacklock: get
Dr. Kevin Christie: below. He's, he's
Michael Shacklock: even bigger than, than, you know, than Alex. Oh no. Yeah.
Dr. Kevin Christie: I just was going to say, cause I'm, I've been ART certified for, Getting on close to 20 years now, and I've done their nerve entrapment course a couple of times, and [00:10:00] that's been helpful for me to get the lay of the land.
Um, I have yet to, to, to join you, but that's not going to be too far down the road for sure. Um, an interesting conversation I had actually with Brett Winchester a few years ago, he was, uh, teaching At my office and we were having coffee with one of the, uh, attendees and the attendees had a really good question.
He was like, you know, uh, there's a lot of things out there clinically, uh, that one could do. Um, let's just leave it at as the chiropractic profession, but obviously physical therapy too. But, uh, this gentleman was a chiropractor and he asked that question, like, you know, all these things you can do, you know, what would be your core.
Uh, things that you would do in practice, Brett and Brett simply answer, you know, uh, four things. And one of those was, uh, neurodynamics and he really felt strongly about that. Um, and, and I, and I know when the other ones was definitely spinal manipulation. Uh, I think it was DNA, it was DNS and McKenzie and then neurodynamics.
And he just felt like, um, [00:11:00] Those four things really allow you to evaluate and treat and give some good relief to a really wide selection of patients. And, you know, the neurodynamics part, I think, um, to me is very fascinating. From a clinical standpoint, because there's a lot of a lot of patients dealing with this and it just seems to be a hole in the healthcare system, in my opinion, because, you know, if it's if it's the traditional things that orthopedist or neurosurgeon can just clean out and get going with really high results.
Great. But this just just doesn't seem like. It's got a high, high success rate, uh, with a lot of the different types of, uh, conditions that you might see if you specialize in neurodynamic neurodynamics. Uh, is that accurate? It seems like it's a big hole in the healthcare system.
Michael Shacklock: Oh, absolutely. Um, I think it's, um, For me, it's a connection between movement, [00:12:00] pain, and the nervous system.
And they're all integrated in many respects, of course. But for patients, sometimes they have an emphasis. For instance, um, if someone has a disc herniation or a stenotic type mechanism, we know it changes pressure on the nerve root. And then can reduce, can produce pain in some people. But how they move in relation to that could be really important.
And that could be affected by spinal joints or segmental stiffness. And you might do what we call HLBA or high velocity manipulative techniques, machine manipulation. You could treat with that to help mobilize. You could help people move with DNS. And some people would jump to neural mobilization and flossing.
But to me, that's not enough. I personally think, well, we know that neurodynamics now has inclusion and exclusion criteria. So if someone has a certain cluster of features, that we would put them into the neurodynamic hospital. But if they don't have that cluster, then we would keep them out of that hospital and keep them into the musculoskeletal hospital.
So for me, it's a really good way of teasing out what kind of problems someone has, [00:13:00] and then focus on it if it's important, but excluding it if it's not important. So hopefully people don't perceive me as selling the approach. I'd rather sell when to do it, when not to do it, and if we're doing it, how well to do it.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Well, the when to do it and when not to do it, it's a, it's a key thing in a lot of techniques and it's a, it's a key thing clinically because what we're seeing a lot, unfortunately, and I know it happens to younger, uh, chiropractors because they're still trying to figure a lot of things out, um, but they've got all these tools in their tool belt and they just throw the kitchen sink at, at every patient and it a, you know, It'd be, uh, you know, you missed the boat B could be over treatment.
Uh, C takes too long. It's not efficient. Uh, there's, there's a lot of problems with throwing the kitchen sink all the time. Every visit at a patient, um, versus being more of a sniper, like Brett would say. And this allows you to say, yeah, this is. This, this is what neurodynamic can do or no, this is what [00:14:00] manipulation can do or rehab can do or you, you name it.
Um, I feel like, would you say that's a key component of this?
Michael Shacklock: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, you know, and the skills, of course, um, you can include, exclude quite quickly. Good if it's out, carry on with what's more efficient, if it is in, in, in the system or they're, when they're, they're in the neuro, neurodynamics hospital, as I put it, um, it's really the neurodynamics department of the MSK hospital, really, but that, that, that's kind of how we talk about it.
It's really, it's really important to some people, other people, it's not so important, but I think the important part is that when it's there, it's a really important part. Yeah.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, I like how you guys do that is like, well, we're going to put them in the neurodynamics hospital or the MSK hospital, or it just, it means within your clinic.
Okay. This patient isn't getting everything, but they're going to be getting, you know, soft tissue and rehab, or they're going to be getting neurodynamics. It's a, it's a really good way of doing that and parsing it out. And, and obviously putting a plan together for that patient. Cause I think that's [00:15:00] something that a lot of people fail is the, the patient is so confused.
Yeah.
Michael Shacklock: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And for me, um, the skill of figuring out when someone's in or out of the system and then how to vary it according to that patient. You know, we have a ton of people in physical therapy and maybe in chiropractic as well saying, don't worry, be happy, move. That's the solution to musculoskeletal pain.
Because it's biopsychosocial, with psychosocial being the biggest part. Now, sure, we can accept a lot of that, but leaving the physical is a disaster, because I feel that we need to develop that further to study it better. And for me, um, Neurodynamics is one of those key aspects that you can flip in, flip out, progress, integrate with MSK, which should be done, and so forth.
No, it
Dr. Kevin Christie: makes, that makes a lot of sense for sure, which is great. And you, you know, I want to touch on a couple, a couple of different things. Um, you mentioned cervical radiculopathy, lumbar radiculopathy. Um, is there anything like, you know, [00:16:00] carpal tunnel syndrome or any of the other extremity things that aren't necessarily, uh, coming from the C spine or L spine that you're also dealing with?
Michael Shacklock: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. For me, the big one, well, the most commonly studied one and the one we see a reasonable amount of is, uh, is carpal tunnel syndrome, but also, um, thoracic outlet syndrome, but subtle versions of it, you know, shoulder problem, shoulder dyskinesia and so forth. Another one is tarsal tunnel syndrome and piriformal syndrome.
They're the big, how many are the big seven or something? I don't, Steve McGill talks about the big three or something. I think that'd be the big seven or something. You know, I don't know. Um, but, but basically it's for me, lumbar and cervical radiculopathy type problems. Cervicogenic headache actually is another one.
We, there's a myodural attachment between the brachiosacral posterior mind and the dura there. We can address with neural aspects for headache and then there's piriformis syndrome. Tarsal tunnel syndrome. They're the big ones with thoracic outlet and carpal tunnel. You also get the [00:17:00] elbow with pronator and supramotor tunnel syndromes and things, but they're, they're a bit more common in the upper upper limb throwing sports, but they're the big ones.
Those are the big ones I mentioned. I mean, they're really important.
Dr. Kevin Christie: That's great. Um, so if someone wanted to dive into, to really understand this material, um, What's the, the training and certification process steps, um, different levels, uh, how long does it typically take to, to kind of get there? I know there's probably some people that now.
Uh, instruct for you. So not everybody wants to go all the way that level, but they really want to be clinically efficient in this, in their practice.
Michael Shacklock: My feeling is that people go through the level one system, which is upper quarter and lower quarter or upper extremity, lower extremity. That's probably puts people in the top five or 10 percent of practitioners for knowledge in that area anyway, because most people are just doing flossing.
If a nerve hurts, floss it. If it doesn't, whoop, I don't know what to do next. Um, so that, that's one of the things. So upper and lower quarter one is the [00:18:00] first level. You can do exams at that point and become certified as an NDS, Neurodynamic Solutions Practitioner at level one. And then you can go to do practitioner stuff there.
We have mostly a hybrid model. So we want people to do a bit of online and a bit of in person stuff as well at each level.
Dr. Kevin Christie: That's perfect. And, um, that you could probably get that done in a year or two potentially, or?
Michael Shacklock: So, yes, we could do level, um, one upper and lower quarter and you did it. Yeah, within a year, you could do that.
That's level one. And the next year would be probably level two.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Perfect. And then, um, let's say the, the, the, um, practitioner has gotten pretty efficient at this, uh, and they're in a clinical setting. Um, and they've determined, let's just say, what would an evaluation process, how long would it potentially take, uh, for an efficient, not maybe like a, uh, Superstar practitioner that's been doing it for 25 years, but someone that's gotten pretty efficient.
How long would that evaluation take?
Michael Shacklock: [00:19:00] Neurodynamic assessment. Well for me neurodynamic assessment is included in this current assessment And and it's pretty hard to say just focus on one point in other because all this info as you know All this information comes in the patient and you've got to tease out and as you say pass out the important bits Um, so If you're doing just a neurodynamic assessment and putting it into MSK, it probably only adds an extra few minutes to the, to the, to the consultation with some neurodynamic testing, quick neurological and some nerve palpation, because the subjective stuff come at you.
I've got pins and needles down my arm. There you go. Subjectively, anyway, they could be in the system, so you just do physical testing. So for me, it's not actually a very time consuming approach, except when you get a complex patient, which is because of the complex patient, it's not necessarily because of the complex neurodynamics.
So for me, it adds a bit of extra, or you could substitute that, remove a bit of MSK and so forth. But for me, if someone had a pretty basic neurodynamic problem, probably 5 10 minutes, [00:20:00] once all the subjective stuff is gone. Um, being collected and that's all part of your natural MSK anyway. So it's kind of injected rather than substituted usually anyway.
Oh, that's great. I don't, I don't feel like I'm being very clear about that, but, but that's kind of how I approach it anyway.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Obviously, what I think you're saying is that, you know, your evaluation process in whole because you got to do a bunch of things, you know, you got to run through orthopedic testing and a history consultation.
There's a lot of stuff that goes on with all that, uh, but the component within all of that, that would be, uh, neurodynamics is, is about 5 to 10 minutes or, or less, uh, depending on the situation, which is obviously very reasonable.
Michael Shacklock: A bit so much detail you want to do, sometimes I might focus on one aspect of someone's problem.
I might not do neurodynamics. And another consultation, I might say, look, we're going to look at your nerves this time. And that might take 15, 20 minutes or whatever. Um, so it's a bit variable really, but for me, it's about clinical reasoning, judging what's important and being [00:21:00] flexible. But it's hard for me to put a time.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, of course. It makes it, I just wanted to make sure, like, you know, cause some people get concerned, like, oh, is this going to be an extra. 35 minutes, you know, like, yeah, it's reasonable. Um, and then, okay, now you've determined this patient, uh, could definitely benefit from neurodynamics. Let's say it's a moderate case, not a really, you know, complicated, hard case, uh, come in for follow ups and stuff like that.
Uh, how long would an efficient clinical practitioner typically, you know, range, um, spend on working through that on a, on a particular visit?
Michael Shacklock: Oh, if it's not too complicated, 15 minutes, like I'd say, come in, how's, sciatica is a really good example of someone with severe sciatica. They come in limping, they've had it for a week or so, a few nights, might even be a week or two where they can't sleep.
And you know, I'll say to them really quickly, what's your favorite resting position to ease your pain? And I'll go, I'll go there, let's do it, [00:22:00] and in that position, I'll open the foramen manually, how's your leg pain? Close the foramen manually, how's your leg pain? And quite quickly, within two minutes, you can say, well, this is an opening or a closing dysfunction.
We're going to, because there are really severe pain, we're going to open and unload, and we just do that for 60 seconds, five times. That's the treatment and we monitor the neurological and the neurodynamic, the straight leg raise for instance, in that same session and if it improves, we just give that as a home program.
Then we review them obviously, quite soon afterwards. So initially, if it's quite severe and you can't do too much because of the pain, it's actually quite quick.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, that, you know, that's great too, because think of the buy in when you can do what you just said, and that person can say, wow, he was able to open that up, close that up, and I could see the difference, like, he really knows what he's doing.
Um, and he
Michael Shacklock: found it. Patient response and interaction, really important. Yeah, absolutely. Because if you think [00:23:00] about it,
Dr. Kevin Christie: some of these people, you know, they've gone to other health care providers and some of them don't even evaluate them physically, right? They don't even get in there and, and do that. And it's, it's literally like a history and consultation.
And then here's a prescription. Um, and so to be able to do that and actually affect change is, is something that's going to, uh, buy in, you know, and we. We talk a lot about giving a great report of findings at the end of a first session or something that's always important, but when you can kind of show them along the way during the evaluation and treatment process, uh, it, it, they're sold right away.
Michael Shacklock: Interaction gives pain relief by buying.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, for sure. Which, which is, which is obviously helpful for, uh, for them too. Right? Because I think that's something that we don't talk a lot about is that if that patient has confidence in you as the provider, their results, uh, because obviously they'll [00:24:00] adhere, uh, better, uh, but there, you know, there's something to be said about having a lot of confidence in that provider just psychologically.
Michael Shacklock: So, yeah, engagement's critical, well, it affects compliance, really, compliance when it comes to exercising or executing a treatment strategy is critical.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah, no, absolutely, which is, which is great. Um, now, what's next on your, your radar? When are you back in the United States?
Michael Shacklock: I'm coming back in June. I'm coming across to San Francisco in, um, June, mid June and then doing a private thing in Idaho with a, with a chiropractic group there.
We're doing some in service training there. Um, and, uh, then coming across to San Francisco, Idaho, and then I'm actually going to Europe after that. So it's a bit of, it's a world tour for this one, but the first ones are in, uh, June, June in San Francisco and, uh, Idaho the week before that, before that piece of On the level two course, but then [00:25:00]
Dr. Kevin Christie: yeah, we were, uh, I was fortunate enough, we all had dinner in, in Vegas a couple months ago at, at Parker.
And I know, um, uh, Aaron was there. I think you're going to his clinic in Idaho to do the in-service. That's a,
Michael Shacklock: yeah, that's right. Yeah. And Ben,
Dr. Kevin Christie: yeah, that Aaron. Ben Rums. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. That'll be, that'll be cool that he is doing that for his team. Mm, absolutely. Awesome. Now, um, how could someone, uh, really start to plan out?
Okay. I'm a chiropractor. I want to get this going. Um, level one, obviously would they start with a particular upper or lower or does it matter? Um,
Michael Shacklock: we do the level we at the moment, they were the first two courses this year are hybrid. So we come, the good news with that is that we condense the in person plan into two days instead of four.
So you're cutting part of your time away by, by two days out of four and then we do the hybrid model which is online a month before and a couple months after which gives all the theory and all the hands on techniques. So it's a three month [00:26:00] program but the in person part is two days usually over a weekend.
That's great.
Dr. Kevin Christie: That's great. And then
Michael Shacklock: that's
Dr. Kevin Christie: what's that?
Michael Shacklock: It's upper and lower extremely one.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Cool. All right. And then you said you're going to be in San Francisco. Uh, that will be great. We'll put that in the, in the show notes for sure. Um, that'll be great now. Um, What are you seeing? This is, I'm going to put you on the spot here a little bit, but what are you excited about, um, as it relates to this over the next coming years with different, um, understanding of things, technologies that are out there that may be helping out?
Is there anything that's on the horizon that that's going to help out the neurodynamics practitioner and obviously the
Michael Shacklock: patient? Yeah, there is. Um, it might be more than a year away, but, um, we're now able to measure, our research group up in Spain and so forth has been able to measure, um, stiffness of peripheral nerve with ultrasound, uh, with elastography.
And, um, one of my, um, [00:27:00] One of the things I, one of the things I dislike about in our business is there's a lot of generalism going on, meaning, don't worry, be happy, just do flissy flossies, you'll be okay. Um, when that's true to some people, but we're giving up on the specifics. And what I've been working for maybe a decade or two on this particular type of thing, and we now have validated the specifics of how to focus forces in the nerves with a neuroendocrinomic test, with the upper limb test, Australia Grey's.
And so for me, um, that's going to head into technology through ultrasound, and later on, we'll be able to do a neuroendocrinomic test, we'll look at someone's nerve with ultrasound, and tell you how specifically they're doing it.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Oh, that would be, that would be amazing. Um, you know, I've been on this on your iPhone.
On your
Michael Shacklock: iPhone. Yeah.
Dr. Kevin Christie: I've been on this, uh, kick over the last handful of years with just technology, not just in healthcare, but just overall, I mean, I think everybody's kind of starting to [00:28:00] realize like the world is going to get real crazy here in the next handful of years with everything that's, that's out there.
And, and I, uh, I attend virtually something called abundance 360, which is out in California for four days. Uh, it's, it's, uh, you can't really go to it live now. They've kind of, uh, sold it out, kept it. It's, it's super expensive, but they, they do everything, you know, talk a lot about AI to Bitcoin, to longevity, to healthcare, all like everything that's out there from a technology standpoint.
And so I've been on this, um, kind of concurrent, um, Excitement and diving into modernizing a practice. And that would look like, yeah, let's modernize your marketing. Let's modernize your website and your, all that type of stuff, your technologies that are like online scheduling and everything of that nature.
But what does it also [00:29:00] look like for a chiropractor or physical therapist to modernize their practice from a clinical standpoint? And, and that's exciting. And I'm sure you're excited about that.
Michael Shacklock: I think can I was scalability is important as a big thing, but that it's hard when you've got specifics with individuals, I just spoke to a tech company who are now developing a, um, a, um, a, a video monitoring system that you can have in your clinic where people can do exercises.
And it gives them biofeedbacks is too high, too quick to whatever it is. And, and they'll be able to have it on their phone, put it in front of them. It'll record their exercises and everything, give them feedback. And then that'll feed through to the chiropractor or physio about how they're doing.
Dr. Kevin Christie: That's amazing.
And I think one of the things that a lot of us practitioners have to understand, because I know some will be like, Oh, you know, a lot of my patients aren't going to want to deal with that because maybe their patients are baby boomers or, [00:30:00] uh, late gen Xers and stuff. But I tell them, I was like, Just start to understand that.
Like when you say millennial, now the millennial is not 24 years old. The millennial is 40 years old. The millennial is 41 years old. They're 37 years old. The, the millennial is into this stuff. Obviously the Gen Z, which is the 23 year old, they're into this stuff. That group, the Gen Z and the millennials and say, the.
A young Gen Xers, like I'm 44, I'm a kind of young Gen Xer, uh, they're into that stuff. And that's slowly going to be the very, uh, high percentage of your patient base. And it's not going to be baby boomers for that much longer because, uh, sadly they're, they're going to be leaving us.
Michael Shacklock: They
Dr. Kevin Christie: will, they will, for sure, and so, um, uh, you know, speed up five, 10 years from now, if your practice is antiquated in your clinical skill set is antiquated, um, they're going to be finding [00:31:00] other providers that are keeping up with this stuff.
Michael Shacklock: And I think feedback and interactions, engagements critical for that sort of thing. And that's what technology is going to help us with that. Is it good with compliance?
Dr. Kevin Christie: It is. And that's the big thing, right? Like we're starting to see really good apps out there and certain things like you mentioned with the cell phone that just definitely helps with compliance.
So the day, the days of like their only therapy or monitoring or compliance is when they're physically in your office. That's going to be changing. Special. Well, Michael, is there anything I didn't ask you to? This was great. I wanted to get people an understanding of, of what you're doing, what's out there and how this can just obviously impact their practice.
Michael Shacklock: Well, just that it's a, it's a growing area. It's a new area. It fills a gap. The gap is how do you treat nerve, movement related nerve pain. So if someone moves and they get radiating pain, that's our diagnosis and treatment system for exactly that problem, which is part of clinical practice. It's not everything, but it's part of it.
And the good news [00:32:00] is it links really well to MSK, particularly movement systems. exercise systems as well.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Yeah. And I've had, I've had the pleasure to be able to work directly with some practitioners and Michael Lee is one of them and someone that I've got to know really well over the few years. And, um, he was the first one where I saw what it, how it really helped build, um, his practice.
Um, standing in the community as a practitioner, um, and and the results he got from it and how that generated a lot of happy patients, which generated a lot of referrals and, um, he was someone that was able to integrate it very well. Actually,
Michael Shacklock: I was going to say that one of the big benefits that practitioners have been saying that they have benefited from in their approach is that they've focused on an aspect of nerve problems, such as sciatica or sort of brachialgia or whatever.
And they've later laterally become known as the nerve clinic, or they're the nerve guys or the nerve people. And some of them have a [00:33:00] relative who says, look, I've got pins and needles in my leg. Ah, I know a clinician, a doctor or whatever, they treat some nervy things. You need to go to this person. So the neurodynamics approach helps people solidify or develop their market as a, as a subspecialty, which attracts quite a lot of people.
So that, that's one thing I didn't mention.
Dr. Kevin Christie: It's so true. And, and I've seen that with some other things. Uh, I've had, uh, some foot and ankle experts on here, like Dr. Thomas Michaud. And, um, he's built a practice and some of, some of the other folks that have really learned from him have built a.
Um, and it's the same thing, uh, like with Michael Lee and some others where you, you do a sense, you become a nerve clinic. And it's not that all your patients are that, but when people have that issue, like, they're coming to your practice, because it's such a problem. And there's just not a lot of great options for them.
Michael Shacklock: Very exciting.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Well, Michael, this was, this was a pleasure. Um, if our audience is interested in this, uh, how can they find you? We'll [00:34:00] put your, your information website in the, in the show notes, but what is it?
Michael Shacklock: Neurodynamic solutions.com. And it's the same with Instagram. They're the two best places to see us.
Neurodynamic solutions.com and Neurodynamic Solutions on Instagram. Perfect. Yeah, they can d DM us or whatever you like.
Dr. Kevin Christie: Awesome. This, this was a, a, a true pleasure and it's something I've been wanting to do, uh, even, uh, before we met and had dinner in Vegas and I was glad we got to connect there, uh, eat a ton of food and have some good drinks and, and now be, be able to talk neurodynamics.
Michael Shacklock: Absolutely. Thank you very much. It was a great pleasure. Absolutely. Have a great one.